https://wiki.archlinux.org/api.php?action=feedcontributions&user=Fruit&feedformat=atomArchWiki - User contributions [en]2024-03-29T15:12:16ZUser contributionsMediaWiki 1.41.0https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Talk:Installation_guide&diff=574481Talk:Installation guide2019-06-03T10:58:33Z<p>Fruit: /* Example layouts for partitions */ new section</p>
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<div>== Read this first before adding new suggestions ==<br />
<br />
* systemd tools such as ''hostnamectl'', ''timedatectl'' and ''localectl'' [https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/798#issuecomment-126568596 do not work] in the installation chroot environment, so please do not propose to use them in the guide unless you can prove that they have been made to work also in that case. See [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Talk:Beginners%27_guide&oldid=388727#General_problems], [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Talk:Beginners%27_guide&oldid=404695#Replace_commands_with_their_systemd_equivalents], [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Talk:Beginners%27_guide&oldid=418662#Utilizing_systemd_tools] and [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Talk:Installation_guide&oldid=434985#change_configuration_system_from_old_way_to_new_way.28using_systemd_commands.29] for some past discussions about this issue.<br />
* {{ic|localectl list-keymaps}} does not work due to bug {{Bug|46725}}. For the chosen replacement command, see [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Talk:Beginners%27_guide&oldid=435044#localectl].<br />
* {{ic|localhost}} must be set explicitely in {{ic|/etc/hosts}}, as it is otherwise resolved over the network. See {{Bug|56684}}.<br />
-- [[ArchWiki:Administrators|The ArchWiki Administrators]] 22:17, 2 September 2016 (UTC)<br />
__TOC__<br />
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== Link to the German version ==<br />
<br />
Instead of [[de:Arch Install Scripts]] you could choose [[de:Anleitung für Einsteiger]] it means "Beginner's Guid" and is a very <br />
detailed artikel for very new arch users and the future experts.<br />
<br />
:Thank you, [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Installation_guide&type=revision&diff=509961&oldid=508505 done]. -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 16:31, 6 February 2018 (UTC)<br />
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::This was already proposed last year and rejected: [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Talk:Installation_guide&oldid=466950#Suggesting_different_page_for_German_translation]. I don't see what has changed since then. If someone adds me as admin to the german wiki or changes the protection settings, I can update [[de:Arch Install Scripts]] as required. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 18:13, 6 February 2018 (UTC)<br />
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:::I see, I didn't remember that discussion so I've reverted the change, hopefully you'll make it to update the translation, let's leave this open until the problem is solved, otherwise this kind of suggestion will keep appearing recurrently. -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 17:53, 7 February 2018 (UTC)<br />
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== Network configuration ==<br />
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=== dhcpcd for installed environment ===<br />
<br />
How about we add a sentence to [[Installation_guide#Network_configuration]] describing how to restore use of ''dhcpcd'' as done on the installation medium? That way if the connection already worked on installation people only need a brief look at [[dhcpcd]]. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 15:48, 27 May 2018 (UTC)<br />
<br />
:I think that would just hide the possibility of choice from users. Maybe just say that dhcpcd is not enabled on the installed system without recommending anything. -- [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 17:34, 27 May 2018 (UTC)<br />
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=== once chrooted, one has to configure again ===<br />
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One chrooted, configuration file edited in the previous steps, will have to be redone in the chrooted environment (/etc/systemd/network/ files). This is the same for ntp configuration (/etc/systemd/timesyncd.conf).<br />
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This should be worth noting.<br />
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{{unsigned|12:27, 14 May 2019|Mrechte}}<br />
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:The guide does not say to edit anything under {{ic|/etc/systemd/}} in the first place, so there is nothing to be ''redone''. Furthermore, [[Installation guide#Network configuration]] says to "Complete the [[network configuration]] for the newly installed environment." -- [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 17:27, 17 May 2019 (UTC)<br />
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== Why should a static IP be preferred over 127.0.1.1 in /etc/hosts? ==<br />
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"If the system has a permanent IP address, it should be used instead of 127.0.1.1."<br />
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I think the ArchWiki should not just say do X but also why. [[User:Alad|Alad]] as you added this, perhaps you can explain?--[[User:Larivact|Larivact]] ([[User talk:Larivact|talk]]) 15:14, 21 May 2018 (UTC)<br />
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:In [[Network_configuration#Local hostname resolution]]: "For a system with a permanent IP address, that permanent IP address should be used instead of 127.0.1.1." -- [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 06:48, 22 May 2018 (UTC)<br />
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::[https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Network_configuration&diff=340138&oldid=333485 First] appearance in our wiki, cited [https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/debian-reference/ch05.en.html#_the_hostname_resolution source], also [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Talk:Network_configuration&oldid=360328#Hostname_resolution discussion]. -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 10:26, 22 May 2018 (UTC)<br />
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== Network Configuration -- WiFi discussion ==<br />
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I'm starting a new thread seeing as the last one took a different direction and never really got resolved.<br />
<br />
----<br />
<br />
As it stands, the current instructions for the installation guide make it challenging for users who need to connect to the internet via a Wireless connection rather than wired. The [[Installation_guide#Connect_to_the_Internet]] section essentially assumes the users are using a wired connection, and to test it with a ping. Otherwise, they are directed to the [[Network_configuration]] page. Unfortunately, that page does not provide clear instructions for new users (or even those who just want to do a quick connection) to establish a connection via wireless. Equally so, should users find their way to the [[Wireless_network_configuration]] page, there is some digging to do there in order to find instructions to setup a connection. These are currently using the iw command, which may prove to be challenging to some.<br />
I see a few different possible solutions to improve the user experience:<br />
* Add explicit instructions to the installation guide<br />
** This is not ideal, as it adds another place to maintain likely duplicate information<br />
* Add a reference to the [[Wireless_network_configuration]] page<br />
** This is better, though the page would likely need a new section, or some tweaking to allow users to more easily find the information they need to get setup<br />
* Add new/better instructions to the [[Network_configuration]] page<br />
** This may also prove to be tricky, seeing as that page is already fairly monolithic, and focuses mostly on wired connections<br />
One other consideration (of which I also don't see any progress) is the discussions revolving around moving and breaking down the Network Configuration guides, to separate Wired and Wireless content. With this move I could see such instructions being provided there. In any case, the guide should provide instructions that are:<br />
* Easy to follow, particularly for new users<br />
* Puts no emphasis on persisting configurations, as this is not applicable during the install phase<br />
* Offers options (choice is King)<br />
--[[User:CubeTheThird|CubeTheThird]] ([[User talk:CubeTheThird|talk]]) 23:47, 26 August 2018 (UTC)<br />
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:The [[Wireless network configuration]] link [[Special:Diff/523161|was removed]] because it cannot be used independently of [[Network configuration]]. I propose the following:<br />
:# Implement [[Talk:Network configuration#Moving Ethernet-specific sections to Wired subpage]]. [[Network configuration]] currently isn't straightforward. The actual setup instructions are hidden in the ''Network management'' section and it's confusing that wireless has a subpage but wired and medium-agnostic configuration are mixed together. See [[User:Larivact/drafts/Network configuration|my demo]].<br />
:# <s>Have the ''Connect to the Internet'' section only link [[Network configuration]] and move the dhcpcd udev rule note there.</s><br />
:# Move [[Wireless network configuration]] to [[Network configuration/Wireless]] and move its ''iw'' section to a dedicated article because since recently we also have [[iwd]].<br />
:The result should be more user-friendly without duplicating content.<br />
:--[[User:Larivact|Larivact]] ([[User talk:Larivact|talk]]) 07:13, 27 August 2018 (UTC)<br />
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::As for your demo, note that in [[Talk:Network_configuration#Ongoing_rewrite]], [[User:Alad|Alad]] said: "ping is one of the very first commands a new user has to run on installation to verify the availability of an internet connection". So unless you intend to direct users from the installation guide directly to the [[Network configuration#Troubleshooting]] section, there is still some more thinking to be done... -- [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 07:21, 28 August 2018 (UTC)<br />
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:::Well then let's keep ''Connect to the Internet'' and revise it:<br />
<br />
The installation image has [https://git.archlinux.org/archiso.git/tree/configs/releng/airootfs/etc/udev/rules.d/81-dhcpcd.rules a udev rule] that enables the [[dhcpcd]] service for Ethernet network interfaces on boot. If you use Ethernet, verify the connection with [[ping]]:<br />
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# ping archlinux.org<br />
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If the ping fails see [[Network configuration#Troubleshooting]]. If you want to use Wi-Fi or a static IP address, [[stop]] the ''dhcpcd'' service with {{ic|systemctl stop dhcpcd@''interface''}} where the {{ic|''interface''}} name can be [[Wikipedia:Command-line_completion|tab-completed]] and proceed with [[Network configuration]].<br />
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:::--[[User:Larivact|Larivact]] ([[User talk:Larivact|talk]]) 08:41, 28 August 2018 (UTC)<br />
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::::That looks good to me. -- [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 14:57, 28 August 2018 (UTC)<br />
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== fstab ==<br />
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The section about generating the fstab with genfstab mentions -U and -L options but not the possibility to use GPT identifiers PARTUUID and PARTLABEL with the '-t' option. Those are described in [[Persistent block device naming]] and are a better choice for some users. genfstab itself doesn't explicitly list the GPT options either so IMHO it would be helpful to add this info here.<br />
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{{unsigned|15:12, 9 October 2018|Grmat}}<br />
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:In that case you should open a bug / file a patch such that {{ic|genfstab}} does list these options. The wiki shouldn't make up for missing basic documentation in distribution tools. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 17:49, 13 March 2019 (UTC)<br />
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== Wording in example layout table and size of EFI partition ==<br />
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=== Wording in example layout table ===<br />
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Regarding [[Installation_guide#Example_layouts]]:<br />
<br />
even if many users will understand remainder of the device as what is left after size of /dev/sdx1 and /dev/sdx3 are subtsructed from the size of the device, I think the order of the table might be confusing for some. Some people might set /dev/sdx2 to the size of the device minus size of /dev/sdx1, and then stumbled at where from 512 MiB, or larger, are to be found for /dev/sdx3. Either suggest the swap space as /dev/sdx2 and / as /dev/sdx3, or better explain the meaning of the remainder of the device for sdx2. [[User:Regid|Regid]] ([[User talk:Regid|talk]]) 14:05, 29 December 2018 (UTC)<br />
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:Using /dev/sdx2 for swap is questionable, it doesn't emphasize that swap is optional nor is it consistent with other articles like [[dm-crypt/Encrypting an entire system]]. If you have some better explanation for "remainder of the device" feel free to propose it. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 08:55, 30 December 2018 (UTC)<br />
:: I was trying to say that a user that patitions his HD by following the table might do the following: look at first row in the table, and creates the EFI partition. Than continue with the 2nd row. So he creates a partition at the remainder of his HD. Now he comes to the 3rd row: where will he get 512 MiB, or larger? As for [[dm-crypt/Encrypting an entire system]], I might be wrong thinking that each partition is considered a separate device, so it doesn't matter if the swap space is before, or after, the / partition. [[User:Regid|Regid]] ([[User talk:Regid|talk]]) 12:41, 30 December 2018 (UTC)<br />
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::: Perhaps call it "Principal part of the device" instead. NB the term "remainder of the device" is often used for a separate {{ic|/home}} in other articles. --[[User:Indigo|Indigo]] ([[User talk:Indigo|talk]]) 21:33, 3 February 2019 (UTC)<br />
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:: Partioning disks mentions fdisk but better is gdisk /dev/sdX (x representing your drive. mine is sda) then running commands x, z, y, y after that run cgdisk [[User:Drillsar|Drillsar]] ([[User talk:Drillsar|talk]]) 01:04, 16 May 2019 (UTC)<br />
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== Boot loader installation ==<br />
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[[Installation guide#Boot loader]] doesn't say to '''install''' a boot loader, it only refers to a list of them. How about adding something like "Choose and install at least one boot loader."? -- [[User:nl6720|nl6720]] ([[User talk:nl6720|talk]]) 19:46, 14 March 2019 (UTC)<br />
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: ''At least'' one? -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 21:09, 14 March 2019 (UTC)<br />
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:: Might not be the most common scenario, but it's possible to use one boot loader for BIOS booting and another for UEFI booting. E.g. [[rEFInd]] for UEFI booting + [[Syslinux]] for BIOS booting. If that use case is too uncommon to be mentioned then just add "Choose and install a boot loader.". -- [[User:nl6720|nl6720]] ([[User talk:nl6720|talk]]) 21:31, 14 March 2019 (UTC)<br />
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=== Boot loader options ===<br />
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Is it worth saying that without {{Pkg|systemd-sysvcompat}}, you need to add the {{ic|1=init=/lib/systemd/systemd}} kernel parameter?<br />
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I got a bad surprise when I uninstalled the thing. – [[User:Flying_sheep|flying sheep]] 08:05, 18 April 2019 (UTC)<br />
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:That is not something that belongs in the [[Installation guide]]. The {{ic|1=init=}} parameter is documented in [[Kernel parameters#Parameter list]] and its description hints at the consequences of uninstalling {{Pkg|systemd-sysvcompat}}.<br />
:What made you decide to uninstall {{Pkg|systemd-sysvcompat}}? -- [[User:nl6720|nl6720]] ([[User talk:nl6720|talk]]) 10:37, 18 April 2019 (UTC)<br />
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::I decided I didn’t need the aliases it provides. Little did I know that one of them is Linux’ defaults.<br />
::I think it’s a bit hidden there and there should be some way to discover this in the wiki while installing – [[User:Flying_sheep|flying sheep]] 16:58, 22 April 2019 (UTC)<br />
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:::I'm not against making it a bit more discoverable, but the [[Installation guide]] is not the place for that. I think it would best belong somewhere in the [[systemd]] page. -- [[User:nl6720|nl6720]] ([[User talk:nl6720|talk]]) 07:58, 24 April 2019 (UTC)<br />
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with UEFI you only need to run bootctl install and add entries to arch.conf. Why isn't this mentioned? [[User:Drillsar|Drillsar]] ([[User talk:Drillsar|talk]]) 01:01, 16 May 2019 (UTC)<br />
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:[[bootctl]] is systemd-boot's installation command. The wiki should not give preference to a specific boot loader. -- [[User:nl6720|nl6720]] ([[User talk:nl6720|talk]]) 15:13, 16 May 2019 (UTC)<br />
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== Confusing partition numbers ==<br />
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The partition numbers on this page are confusing. The table calls the root partition /dev/sdX2, while the text below calls it /dev/sdX1. It should be matched for consistency. [[User:Sabinscabin|Sabinscabin]] ([[User talk:Sabinscabin|talk]]) 20:29, 13 April 2019 (UTC)<br />
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:Probably better to do it as [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Beginners%27_guide&oldid=446855#Identify_the_devices] -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 18:53, 1 May 2019 (UTC)<br />
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== Time configuration ==<br />
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Why use:<br />
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# ln -sf /usr/share/zoneinfo/x/y /etc/localtime<br />
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Instead of:<br />
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# ln -sfr /usr/share/zoneinfo/x/y /etc/localtime<br />
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Keeping relative links isn't better?<br />
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{{Unsigned|10:56, 7 May 2019 (UTC)|Tinti}}<br />
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== Example layouts for partitions ==<br />
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Why suggest only 512MB of Linux SWAP when it's recommended to use double the RAM?</div>Fruit