Talk:Installation guide

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Read this first before adding new suggestions

  • The point of this page is to be a concise checklist of things to be done. Detailed instructions belong in wiki articles or upstream documentation which describe the respective topics.
  • Should you have more complex changes for this guide in mind, create a copy on your user page, and link it here for review.
  • systemd tools such as hostnamectl, timedatectl and localectl do not work in the installation chroot environment, so please do not propose to use them in the guide unless you can prove that they have been made to work also in that case. See [1], [2], [3] and [4] for some past discussions about this issue.
  • localectl list-keymaps does not work due to bug FS#46725. For the chosen replacement command, see [5].

-- The ArchWiki Administrators 12:16, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

"See foo" vs "See the foo article"

Moved from Talk:Beginners' guide. -- Alad (talk) 20:29, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

This revision [6] added a new mention of "See the foo article", rather than the more common "See foo". I'd argue former is the better form, and when the guide is viewed from a .txt (if the BG/IG merge completes), the longer wording makes sense as well. Are there opinions against using the longer form throughout the BG? -- Alad (talk) 00:13, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

I'm neutral, so that doesn't count as an opinion against ^^ That said, the long form can only be used with links to entire articles, but more difficultly with links to specific sections such as "See also Pacman#pacman crashes the official installation media", since in those cases a more natural-sounding long form should be something like "See also the 'pacman crashes the official installation media' section of the Pacman article", I think, which is clearly ugly to see and use, so consistency is a bit hard to reach. — Kynikos (talk) 16:13, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
I guess the proper solution would be to incorporate links in the article text where possible. "See X" gets repetitive fast, anyway. -- Alad (talk) 14:44, 29 September 2015 (UTC)

pacman-key --populate

Moved from Talk:Beginners' guide. -- Alad (talk) 20:38, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

Reference: https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Beginners%27_guide&diff=next&oldid=411670 I tried to install Archlinux on my new computer and got stuck. Only using the pacman-key --populate archlinux helped me. I think I am not the only one having this problem. But why did you undo it? —This unsigned comment is by Sandstorm (talk) 20:38, 12 December 2015‎. Please sign your posts with ~~~~!

This command is already run for the new system (by installation of archlinux-keyring), so running it by hand shouldn't be required for most users. Of course, things can go wrong (how old was the ISO you used to install the system?), but that belongs in Troubleshooting sections of the respective articles, which are linked at the beginning of the guide. -- Alad (talk) 19:52, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
I had downloaded the ISO just yesterday, minutes before the install. Only that command installed the keys. Probably I should open a bug if you can confirm the issue?
Did you have to run pacman-key after, or before pacstrap? And do you recall what the error messages said exactly? (See also FS#31286) -- Alad (talk) 20:15, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
I had to run after pacstrap. As far as I remember, pacstrap stopped after trying to download the keys. The error message was something like shown in this forum post: https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=165367
Well then, as you suggested, I'd open a bug report. -- Alad (talk) 20:34, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
Done. Could you check if the description is good. I could not find an appropriate category, so I though Packages:Core might be the closest one. https://bugs.archlinux.org/task/47351 --Sandstorm (talk) 20:48, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
Thanks, the description looks OK. If the category e.a is not right, User:Scimmia should fix it. :P -- Alad (talk) 13:59, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
Hmm, looks like it was closed with "Works for me" ... not very enlightening. All I can suggest is to further improve on Pacman/Package signing and related articles, and recheck if they're accessible enough from the Beginners' guide. -- Alad (talk) 21:59, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

Let's mention filesystem tools in pacstrap step

I propose changing the sentence to Other packages or groups can be installed by appending their names to the above command (space separated), possibly including the boot loader or filesystem tools. As the purpose of the site is that it is a checklist, it should mention the most common pacstrap packages such as filesystem tools (for example btrfs-progs are needed separately).

—This unsigned comment is by Drws (talk) 18:43, 8 April 2016‎. Please sign your posts with ~~~~!

The base group already includes e2fsprogs, jfsutils, reiserfsprogs, sysfsutils and xfsprogs, but no boot loader (except systemd-boot). Adding a hint for filesystem tools is of much less value than boot loaders, because the system will boot even without the file system tools, which would otherwise have to be loaded from the file system they should make accessible. -- Lahwaacz (talk) 20:58, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
I agree. If you install to (e.g.) btrfs, generating the initramfs later on is bound to fail without required tools installed. Yet, "possibly the boot loader" is a little fuzzy itself: If you (a) want to install a boot loader before the chroot (e.g. its install target /mnt/boot), you would need to install it to the booted ramdisk first. If you (b) install it regularly, inside the chroot, the boot loader instructions will tell what you need and the general hint should be better moved to Installation guide#Install a boot loader itself.
I suggest we change the sentence like so:
"Other packages or groups (e.g. any your system may require on top for the first boot) can be installed directly, by appending the names to the above command (space separated), or individually during the next step."
And make the boot loader hint more explicit, by changing Installation guide#Install a boot loader to:
"Install a boot loader package and the boot loader to the respective bootable partition. See Boot loaders for the available choices and configuration."
Both changes keeping in mind, the main target group for this guide should be being a checklist for advanced users without previous exposure to the distro/tools. --Indigo (talk) 11:09, 4 June 2016 (UTC)
I've added a similar sentence with [7], but I'm unsure on jumping ahead to following sections. Keeping instructions strictly related to the respective installation step helps improve clarity, and we could add something to Installation#Change root and Installation#Install a boot loader, instead.
About the first point, the install iso has grub, syslinux and systemd-boot available, so it's unlikely you need to install a package in the live environment. -- Alad (talk) 15:53, 18 July 2016 (UTC)
Follow-up: [8] [9] Do we need to add more examples, like for Wireless? -- Alad (talk) 16:37, 18 July 2016 (UTC)
Thanks Alad, but I'm -1 for the last changes: why remove "group" and use AUR/ABS with base-devel as an example; few users will need it for the first boot. Wireless may be an example, yes, if users need a firmware package that is on the ISO but not in base (I have not checked, but we should keep the ISO package list link, so users can find such packages easy).
IMO, instead of base-devel, best fitting examples are the already mentioned bootloaders and filesystem tools not in base, like the btrfs-progs this item was opened for.
Your first comment about boot loaders and live environment I don't understand. We are solely talking about useful examples for the first pacstrap. There may be reasons some users may choose/have to install the boot loader from outside the chroot, for example if they don't want to disable secure boot.
--Indigo (talk) 17:20, 18 July 2016 (UTC)
It seems odd to have no mention of base-devel, unless we also add it to the pacstrap command. In line with the first boot idea, we could instead mention it in General_recommendations#Arch_Build_System.
Wireless packages could be mentioned in Installation guide#Network configuration; though ideally, Wireless would contain a table of required firmware packages, rather than a collection of links and troubleshooting sections, cf. [10]
You're probably right on including packages.both, though it equally belongs in Category:Getting and installing Arch to add context on what you can do with the live ISO. -- Alad (talk) 10:43, 19 July 2016 (UTC)
I agree regarding base-devel, it is in our interest to mention it early; I just considered it the wrong first example for the pacstrap. It could be added like "If you know you will compile packages from the ABS or the AUR, it is suggested to also install the base-devel group early on.", or as a bonus GR pointer in Installation guide#Post-installation.
The cf table you quote for firmware's is nice, but too shallow if a device fails out-of-the-box. I believe the first link in Wireless network configuration#Installing driver.2Ffirmware to the much improved kernel doc should get users further on their way than anything else we can maintain in addition to what we have.
+1 to mention packages.both in both places. Most other distros will install more from the ISO and given the size correlation of Arch's ISO/base install, users can be misled into believing they have it all on disc after the command. --Indigo (talk) 12:45, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

timesyncd: add manual date

Moved from Talk:Beginners' guide. -- Alad (talk) 20:44, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

While the right time isn't as important in the live system as in the installed one, it may still be unexpected to users [11]. We could instead instruct to specify a date explicitly to timedatectl. -- Alad (talk) 11:25, 6 July 2016 (UTC)

Is the issue setting the time manually or just setting the time zone? The change you linked to just had setting the time zone. -- Rdeckard (talk) 01:29, 9 July 2016 (UTC)
Well, with setting it manually you'd kill two birds with one stone. The time would be what users expect, but without adding an extra step of little consequence. -- Alad (talk) 18:35, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

BG merge

Progress on Talk:Beginners'_guide#The_Great_Merge is below. Note that content is not copied literally from the BG, but kept in the style and spirit of the IG. This keeps a clear overview of the various steps; if more detailed instructions are required, these belong in dedicated articles. -- Alad (talk) 23:32, 9 July 2016 (UTC)

Sections

Introduction [✔]
  1. Preparation
    1. UEFI mode [✔]
    2. Set the keyboard layout [✔]
    3. Connect to the internet [✔]
    4. Update the system clock [✔]
  2. Prepare the storage devices
    1. Identify the devices [✔]
    2. Partition the devices [✔]
    3. Format the partitions [ ]
    4. Mount the partitions [ ]
  3. Installation
    1. Select the mirrors [✔]
    2. Install the base packages [✔]
  4. Configuration
    1. fstab [✔]
    2. Change root [✔]
    3. Locale [✔]
    4. Time [✔]
    5. Initramfs [✔]
    6. Boot loader [✔]
    7. Network configuration [✔]
      1. Hostname [✔]
      2. Wired [✔]
      3. Wireless [✔]
    8. Root password [✔]
  5. Unmount the partitions and reboot [✔]
  6. Post-installation [✔]

Switch to systemd-networkd

Next ISOs may use systemd-networkd instead of dhcpcd, see [12] -- Alad (talk) 10:26, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

locale in $HOME/.config

The guide mentions:

Add at least LANG=your_locale in /etc/locale.conf and possibly $HOME/.config/locale.conf.

This implies General_recommendations#Users_and_groups, and I'm not sure if the mention is in place. Users who want this information at this early stage, can look at the linked article. -- Alad (talk) 20:38, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

Removing it makes sense to me. — Kynikos (talk) 21:24, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
Thanks, via [13] -- Alad (talk) 21:43, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

broken man link

In Installation guide#Connect to the Internet Template:man for ping has wrong order of arguments {{man|ping|8}}, it should be {{man|8|ping}}. -- 09:58, 25 July 2016‎ Nl6720

Fixed, thanks. -- Lahwaacz (talk) 08:27, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

Dual-boot with windows

In the Beginners' guide, this is mentioned in Beginners'_guide#Format_the_partitions, but perhaps this should be linked earlier, e.g. in Installation guide#Pre-installation. -- Alad (talk) 12:08, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

What about Installation_guide#Partition_the_disks? — Kynikos (talk) 09:51, 26 July 2016 (UTC)