Difference between revisions of "Help talk:Article naming guidelines"

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== Long article names and subpages ==
While I agree that article names should be descriptive, long article names harm the readability of subpage names.
:[[Advanced Linux Sound Architecture/Example Configurations]] vs. [[ALSA/Example Configurations]]
:[[Unified Extensible Firmware Interface/Hardware]] vs. [[UEFI/Hardware]]
:[[Apache HTTP Server/mod fcgid]] vs. [[Apache/mod fcgid]]
I therefore propose that we rename the respective articles to [[ALSA]], [[UEFI]] and [[Apache]].
The long names would redirect to the short names. While naming [[Apache HTTP Server]] "Apache" is a bit misleading the latter currently redirects to the former anyway.
--[[User:Larivact|Larivact]] ([[User talk:Larivact|talk]]) 16:25, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
:I would be for changing the name from the longer version to a more concise abbreviation instead. The longer name "Advanced Linux Sound Architecture" just pollutes the view and takes significantly longer to read than just ALSA, making bookmarks or viewing the page from the tab bar just impractical. I just think that instead of making the titles needlessly complex, just use a universal abbreviation that basically EVERYONE understands who uses with Linux systems whether they are professionals or just trying to figure out how to setup their audio properly.
:I don't feel as if redirects will do the simplification justice, it won't take much work to transfer the pages and delete the old ones. Hell, I'd even volunteer to do it if nobody else will.
:~[[User:Mycatfishsteve|Mycatfishsteve]] ([[User talk:Mycatfishsteve|talk]]) 11:05, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
:I like this proposal, relevant rule - [[Help:Article naming guidelines#Shorten_article_names|#Shorten article names]], not to be confused with [[Help:Article naming guidelines#Descriptive_names|#Descriptive names]], "ALSA" and "UEFI" are descriptive names of those technologies and can't be mistaken for anything else. See also [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Abbreviations#Acronyms_in_page_titles|wp:Acronyms in page titles]]. -- [[User:Svito|Svito]] ([[User talk:Svito|talk]]) 22:47, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
::I believe that renaming the pages to their abbreviation counterparts is the way forward to prevent confusion and unnecessarily long page names. On the manual of style for abbreviations on Wikipedia, following all the guidelines of which pages should be renamed to their shorter counterparts, UEFI and ALSA fit this criteria perfectly. Most forum posts will not specifically ask for help on the unified extended firmware interface and instead use the shorter version. This is also useful because UEFI and ALSA sounds phonetically correct and is easier to read.
:: Can you authorise the changes alone or does it require a vote between the other wiki maintainers?
:: [[User:Mycatfishsteve|Mycatfishsteve]] ([[User talk:Mycatfishsteve|talk]]) 21:03, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
:::For my part I see little reason to go against Wikipedia convention, e.g. [[w:Unified_Extensible_Firmware_Interface]] -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 23:24, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
::::Wikipedia also has [[w:Advanced Linux Sound Architecture]] and the long form is also used in [[Help:Style#Title]] as an example so it goes against both Wikipedia conventions and our style rules. The sections from this page linked by Svito don't cover acronyms. -- [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 08:52, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
::::We don't have convention to have same name as Wikipedia. That Wikipedia article was historically created as "Extensible Firmware Interface" while "UEFI" was created describing UEFI Forum, then first one become "Unified Extensible Firmware Interface", second was moved and became redirect to real thing. Nobody reviewed name to my knowledge, even though by their guidelines it should be UEFI as more commonly used term by people, as for ALSA they have many of them needing disambiguation. We don't have such problem of covering gazillion of topics with same acronym.
::::Our style rules explicitly say: "If the subject of the article is ''commonly known both with the full name and the acronym'', prefer using the full name in the title of the article."
::::-- [[User:Svito|Svito]] ([[User talk:Svito|talk]]) 14:24, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
:::::If the style rule in [[Help:Style#Title]] is prone to cause misunderstandings, we can change it to be more similar to [[w:Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Abbreviations#Acronyms in page titles]]. E.g. "Unless the subject of the article is primarily known by its acronym, prefer using the full name in the title of the article." -- [[User:nl6720|nl6720]] ([[User talk:nl6720|talk]]) 15:09, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
::::::Well, now this discussion is sort of looping back to what the first argument was that UEFI and ALSA *ARE* the most commonly acronyms over their longer counter-parts, you would never hear someone in conversation use UEFI unless they were literally describing the definition of it. It makes page references more convoluted and needlessly longer. [[User:Mycatfishsteve|Mycatfishsteve]] ([[User talk:Mycatfishsteve|talk]]) 13:01, 9 June 2018 (UTC)
:::::::As for page references, you can use the [[UEFI]] and [[ALSA]] redirects, so changing the titles does not change anything here. On the other hand, the page titles themselves '''should''' describe the definition of the acronym (unless the full name is never used to refer to the subject, as [[User:nl6720|nl6720]] says). -- [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 08:59, 10 June 2018 (UTC)
::::::::That holds true provided there is enough reason for titles to be explanatory by themselves. Only one reason I can think of is to avoid use of acronym. I do not feel for validity of that case personally because acronym is always expanded as first sentence of the article which also explains purpose of that article. For those who know both acronym and a long name, acronym is more practical. I'm advocating for practical titles in contrast to verbose ones that are insufficient to understand subject matter anyway. Even though I disagree on flipping this proposal in favor of long name I would agree on making rule clearer on this issue. -- [[User:Svito|Svito]] ([[User talk:Svito|talk]]) 02:55, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
:::::::::Is there a reason ''not'' to have explanatory titles? As was said multiple times (here or in the comments you split off), if the explanatory title is not practical for enough for something or someone, they can use the acronym redirect.
:::::::::Anyway, I've updated [[Help:Style#Title]] with the [[User:nl6720|nl6720]]'s suggestion.
:::::::::-- [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 12:44, 30 June 2018 (UTC)
::::::::::Because they are unnecessarily long and considerably harder to identify subject with which is primary and I believe most important quality of the title. I absolutely despise other purposes title can serve like describing the acronym or describing the thing title identifies. That is not what title should do and my opinion on that is a strong one. -- [[User:Svito|Svito]] ([[User talk:Svito|talk]]) 16:01, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
:::::::That's why I suggested replacing the phrase "'''commonly''' known" with "'''primarily''' known". It would forbid using an acronym as the title unless the full name is never used to refer to the subject. -- [[User:nl6720|nl6720]] ([[User talk:nl6720|talk]]) 14:47, 9 June 2018 (UTC)
::::::::If new rule is correctly worded then we can continue [[Talk:Unified Extensible Firmware Interface#Article_name]] to the opposite effect. If intended effect was to prefer full name because reasons wording should be similar to what you said in your second sentence:
::::::::{{bc|To better explain scope of the article avoid using an acronym as the title unless the full name is never used to refer to the subject.}}
::::::::-- [[User:Svito|Svito]] ([[User talk:Svito|talk]]) 17:07, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
== <s>Article name changes without consensus</s> ==
Despite that [[User:Svito]] has already started moving articles (ಠ_ಠ) major changes like this that affect many wiki articles should have full consensus from the team. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 23:24, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
:It's also confusing that the pages had their move templates removed[https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=UEFI&diff=522179&oldid=521107][https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=ALSA&diff=522178&oldid=521695] previously, making me believe that there will be no page moving. -- [[User:nl6720|nl6720]] ([[User talk:nl6720|talk]]) 07:08, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
::I did that because nobody had responded and I [[Special:Diff/522177|changed my mind]]. --[[User:Larivact|Larivact]] ([[User talk:Larivact|talk]]) 07:12, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
:Long version is not anywhere near as common as short one and there have been enough of arguments for change and only argument against change is following specific interpretation of the rule, just to match existing Wikipedia name, not their actual conventions/rules. I did not break any rule until you decided that I did. Consensus was reached before I made the change with 2 maintainers and 1 contributor in favor, 0 other opinions. Maybe you meant there was no consensus from ''admin team''.
:In practice everything major is decided by admin trio of Dario, Jakub and you, so there no need to have any other form of ''full consensus''. But if any did not show up I think it is completely fine to make changes that were discussed. There is no way for me to guess if something is major or not, until any of you chime in. Your interpretation of rules is more important than anybody else's but again if you did not show up maintainers are ones who is next on the list to decide.
:-- [[User:Svito|Svito]] ([[User talk:Svito|talk]]) 14:24, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
::Correction: just you two, not the maintainer team. As nl6720 pointed out, the move templates were even removed so there was no warning about it either. The very least you could do is announce here you were going to make the moves after a fixed time period. But to be honest I'm getting really tired to keep having to remind you of these things. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 14:45, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
:::Thanks for corrections and notice. I gained new understanding that I should not rely on chance that my changes are not controversial. From now I will give my preference to announcing them regardless of my assumptions - in order to not offend anyone that was passively involved and for me to not be perceived as arrogant. -- [[User:Svito|Svito]] ([[User talk:Svito|talk]]) 01:47, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
::There were 2 opinions in favour of the long name in [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Talk:ALSA&diff=522243&oldid=522047#Usage_of_.22Advanced_Linux_Sound_Architecture_...X..Y..Z....22_lowers_readability] since 2015. You could assume that we still prefer the same thing, but instead you just moved the new comment by [[User:Mycatfishsteve]] to a different discussion (i.e. here). -- [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 14:56, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
:::From my understanding, they were concerning use of article title "as is" or using more common abbreviation(diverging from title) inside the article and not about actual title of the article, which concerns this discussion. -- [[User:Svito|Svito]] ([[User talk:Svito|talk]]) 15:36, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
== Move subpages with long parent names ==
== Move subpages with long parent names ==
I propose we move subpages with long parent names to increase their title readability:
I propose we move subpages with long parent names to increase their title readability:
:[[Advanced Linux Sound Architecture/Example Configurations]] → [[ALSA example configurations]]
:[[Advanced Linux Sound Architecture/Configuration examples]] → [[ALSA configuration examples]]
:[[Unified Extensible Firmware Interface/Hardware]] → [[UEFI hardware]]
:[[Unified Extensible Firmware Interface/Hardware]] → [[UEFI hardware]]

Revision as of 22:55, 13 July 2018

Move subpages with long parent names

I propose we move subpages with long parent names to increase their title readability:

Advanced Linux Sound Architecture/Configuration examplesALSA configuration examples
Unified Extensible Firmware Interface/HardwareUEFI hardware

Parent pages link to subpages in Related articles, and subpages to their parents in the intro anyway. --Larivact (talk) 18:19, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

That goes totally against all current conventions of grouping related pages as subpages of the main page... -- Lahwaacz (talk) 18:58, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
We can change mw:DISPLAYTITLE instead to use common abbreviation on sub-pages, this would require us to disable mw:Manual:$wgRestrictDisplayTitle. As per DRY principle having full title in this case may be redundant. -- Svito (talk) 22:42, 20 May 2018 (UTC)