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{{Box BLUE|1=Regarding ArchWiki internationalization:|2=''There have been a number of discussions about this over the years: [https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=27039 2006], [https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=37513 2007], [https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?pid=675478 2009], and [https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=95360 2010]. In short, there are a number of potential solutions; none are perfect. Currently, the interwiki implementation is considered "best" because it provides non-English users with a fully-localized experience and isolates each language. Other "good" solutions include the creation of language-specific [http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Namespaces namespaces] or migration to a different wiki which provides "better" internationalization options -- but require more effort to implement.'' -- [[User:Pointone|pointone]] 16:07, 21 October 2011 (EDT)
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== Regarding ArchWiki internationalization ==
<br> ''See also [[#"Dummy" interlanguage links and deprecation of Template:i18n]] and [[#Language namespace(s) in place of suffixes?]] for more recent discussions.'' -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 16:06, 3 June 2012 (UTC)}}
 
  
==Officializing ArchWiki Translation Teams?==
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There have been a number of discussions about this over the years: [https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=27039 2006], [https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=37513 2007], [https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?pid=675478 2009], and [https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=95360 2010]. In short, there are a number of potential solutions; none are perfect. Currently, the interwiki implementation is considered "best" because it provides non-English users with a fully-localized experience and isolates each language. Other "good" solutions include the creation of language-specific [http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Namespaces namespaces] or migration to a different wiki which provides "better" internationalization options -- but require more effort to implement. -- [[User:Pointone|pointone]] 16:07, 21 October 2011 (EDT)
The Italian and Spanish translation teams have just decided to standardize the titles of their project pages: [[ArchWiki Translation Team (Italiano)]] and [[ArchWiki Translation Team (Español)]]. Is it possible to link those pages here thus somewhat officializing the translation projects, maybe involving other languages too in the future? This could also help finding other people interested in joining the teams. -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] 09:24, 25 April 2011 (EDT)
 
:I support your idea. I've been meaning to write a translation guidelines section (recording the translation date on an article's talk page, something about avoiding starting translations unless planning to complete it, etc.) This is also where I'd like mention the translation projects. I'd appreciate your input. -- [[User:Pointone|pointone]] 15:04, 29 April 2011 (EDT)
 
::Uhm I really don't want to dishearten you about this, but I think that translation-specific guidelines should be left to each language translation team: for example the Italian community uses tables to sum up translation dates, maintainers, notes and so on, and I don't think that writing to avoid starting translations unless planning to complete them would really change users' behaviour... It's already hard to make people follow generic style guidelines, which, by the way, should really be written down as we were discussing a bit of time ago. I want to make me understood: a style guideline would not make sure that everybody respects it at all, but it would allow administrators and occasional correctors (like I am sometimes) to have a definite reference for making corrections to edits and articles in general. You could start a Style Guide page, and then users could add new rules over time (under your supervision), so you wouldn't have to do all the job. I also remind you that there was that discussion on the possibility of restyling the templates.
 
::Anyway, about this discussion, you could add a "Translation Team" field in the table at the bottom, with a link to the relative translation team for each language which has one. Then you could add a subsection to Guidelines similar to this:
 
:::'''Translation teams'''
 
:::Some languages have started collaboration projects (see table below) to efficiently organize the translation of the articles. Please consider joining your language's Translation Team or at least informing it when you are starting translating an article.
 
::(I know, I'm not very inspired tonight ihih) If I'll happen to think of other (maybe better) ways of highlighting the translation projects I'll suggest them here ;) -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] 19:28, 29 April 2011 (EDT)
 
:::IMHO the non-English wikis should be separate from the main one, as it is with French, German and Polish. You have your own forum already. -- [[User:Karol|Karol]] 05:03, 30 April 2011 (EDT)
 
::::That would be the ideal situation. Anyway at least the Italian translation project (I don't know about the other languages) is completely independent from archlinux.it, where as far as I know it was asked some time ago to implement a wiki, but for some reason it came to nothing. -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] 05:55, 30 April 2011 (EDT)
 
  
Related: [[ArchWiki Translation Day]]. Mention external wikis and Translation Teams there. -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] 05:25, 31 January 2012 (EST)
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See also [[#Language namespace(s) in place of suffixes?]] for a more recent discussion. -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 16:06, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
  
==Jobinson==
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__TOC__
About Article Title
 
  
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== MediaWiki translation extension ==
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Speaking of multi language support for MediaWiki. It does have an extension to support translation. See:  http://translatewiki.net/wiki/Main_Page. Here is forum proposal [https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=128610] and bug {{bug|26638}}. As a user of KDE userbase and techbase, I think this extension is exactly what Arch wiki need. But again, lack of man power to do it.
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:Exactly, time's not ripe for talking about this. Please for now let's use the suffix method as consistently as possible: if one day another method will be enforced, it will be much easier to handle at least some parts of the transition automatically with bots or other scripts. -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] 06:01, 30 March 2012 (EDT)
  
ID+title in l18n+(l18n in english) would be better than the present.
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==Language namespace(s) in place of suffixes?==
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This discussion is about the possibility of replacing the current system of classification of the articles by language, using suffixes in the title, with a namespace-based system. <s>This issue has currently a '''lower''' priority than [[#"Dummy" interlanguage links and deprecation of Template:i18n]].</s>
  
1、the ID  is the same with the id of the english original article
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The main advantage would be that it would be possible to have only English articles as results when using the search engine, and, depending on the implementation of this idea, it may be possible also to select the language of the search.
  
2、title in locale language would be convenient and friendly for the people who is not familiar for english.
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Another advantage would be that in article-list pages (such as those in [[Special:SpecialPages]]) that list articles alphabetically, all the articles for a language would be grouped together.
  
3、l18n in english will help the admin to learn which article hasn't been translated.
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There are many ways we can implement this solution, and each has its advantages and disadvantages; I'd like to also keep the current suffix solution in the discussion, for comparison and also because it has its advantages too.
  
so, with the help of the new subject style , the admin would learn the translated subject of article and the locals would get the native subject for convinient, perfect!
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1) <u>Every language has its own namespace</u>
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*This can be done either with '''local''' or '''English''' language names. '''Note''' that it's not possible to have namespaces named like interlanguage links! <s>For example an article named [[:Ru:Some Title]] could currently be created, but once the ru interlanguage links are activated, that article won't be accessible anymore, and it will be possible to edit/delete it only via the API using its ID (this has already happened with an article that was named with "tr:...").</s>
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*This solution would create 2*N namespaces (where N is the number of languages) because every namespace must have a _talk namespace; I don't know what effect this would have on select menus and other interfaces that list the namespaces (e.g. in special pages filters).
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*Examples:
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:[[Dansk:Some Article]], [[Dansk talk:Some Article]], [[Magyar:Some Article]], ...
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:[[Danish:Some Article]], [[Danish talk:Some Article]], [[Hungarian:Some Article]], ...
  
:The current i18n situation is not ideal, but this proposal seems needlessly complex. Please find our ongoing internationalization discussion at [https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=95360 International Wikis (2010 edition)]. -- [[User:Pointone|pointone]] 11:54, 24 February 2011 (EST)
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2) <u>There's one big namespace for non-English languages</u>
::The same / similar idea was presented [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Talk:Article_Naming_Guidelines here]. -- [[User:Karol|Karol]] 18:17, 25 August 2011 (EDT)
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*There are various possible choices for the name of the namespace: "Lang", "Local", "i18n", ???...
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*The language can be separated from the title with a colon, a slash or some other punctuation mark
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*We could use language tags or full language names
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*Language names could still be suffixes or be part of the prefix
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*This solution just adds 1 namespace and its associated talk
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*Examples:
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:[[Lang:pl/Some Article]], [[Lang talk:pl/Some Article]], [[Lang:zh-CN/Some Article]], ...
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:[[Local:Some Article (Polski)]], [[Local talk:Some Article (Polski)]], [[Local:Some Article (简体中文)]], ...
  
==Serbian==
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3) <u>Some languages can have a proper namespace according to some objective rules based on the number of translations</u>
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*This is a hybrid solution (1-2)
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*The rules could also require the translation of some important articles, see also http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_articles_every_Wikipedia_should_have
  
Clarification needed: there are currently articles tagged with Srpski (Serbian Latin) and others with Српски (Serbian Cyrillic). Are there objections to tagging Srpski articles with Српски instead? (For example: [[Main Page (Srpski)]] to [[Main Page (Српски)]]) Would this be confusing?
 
  
It is my understanding that most Serbians are literate in both scripts, and Cyrillic is considered the "official" script.
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Note that the namespace solution wouldn't be able to separate the languages completely, in fact we'd have to keep mixed Template and Category namespaces: how would we deal with those cases? Case 2) may have the simplest solution by using [[Template:es/Lorem Ipsum]] and [[:Category:es/Lorem Ipsum]] or something like that, and we'd still have the advantage of having templates and categories grouped by language in alphabetical lists. About the Help and ArchWiki namespaces we could do something similar.
  
-- [[User:Pointone|pointone]] 16:11, 17 January 2010 (EST)
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Note that solution 2) would break the use of [[Template:Lowercase title]] in non-English articles. The only way to solve that problem would be using an extension that can parse substrings, or force using <nowiki>{{DISPLAYTITLE:...}}</nowiki>.
  
== Localized templates, categories and special pages? ==
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The bot algorithm to implement such a change should avoid creating redirects for every title, and instead it should update all the backlinks of every article (Wiki Monkey should be able to do that, it has already done a similar thing when removing the English suffix from category names, although in this case it would be a much bigger job).
  
As Archlinux Turkiye team we will begin translations on wiki soon. It is very hard to organize Turkish pages with currenti i18n policy. Non-english speakers are always confused and told us that they lost themselves while trying to reach knowledge here. Currently we decided to use official wiki instead of create a localized wiki on our server. Lack of manpower :). We need to ease things in current i18n policy but need advice and help. So;
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References:
* Should we create localized templates? Instead of "Warning (Türkçe)" ==> "Uyarı" for example? -- [[User:Tarakbumba|tarakbumba]] 10:03, 28 March 2012 (EDT)
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*http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help:Namespace
:Localized template names should only be redirects to the standard title, so in your example "Uyarı" should be a simple redirect to "Warning (Türkçe)" -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] 06:16, 29 March 2012 (EDT)
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*http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Using_custom_namespaces
* Should we create localized categories? If we can, it will help Turkish users to find what they seek to. We can group certain translated articles into their respective localized categories. -- [[User:Tarakbumba|tarakbumba]] 10:03, 28 March 2012 (EDT)
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**http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:$wgContentNamespaces
:I understand the need for localized categories, but currently they're not allowed, although I'm perfectly aware that there are many. You've already noticed that internationalization is still quite messy, please stick to the current rules in any case until they change if they ever do, otherwise we're messing things up even more :) You must understand that the MediaWiki engine is not made for hosting multilanguage projects, even Wikipedia uses different databases for the various languages, so there's always the need for workarounds for handling translations: here we're currently using the "language suffix" method, which means that all pages should be named with the English title followed by the proper language suffix, and then they should use [[Template:i18n]] for enabling navigation between translations. This must be done for ease of maintenance, because the Turkish team is not the only one lacking manpower... :D Other i18n methods have been discussed in the past and also the present, just see the note at the top of this very page, and I'm also aware of the [https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=128610 forum thread] you started, but these changes require lots of time and efforts, and we're currently unable to manage them. -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] 06:16, 29 March 2012 (EDT)
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*http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Project:Language_policy
* Should we create localized Special pages? As [[ArchWiki_talk:Requests#Deprecate_.22request.22_categories.3F|this wiki talk]] mentioned some templates automatically add articles to special pages. We need to gather i.e. articles those marked to be translated into Turkish and will use [[Template:Translateme (Türkçe)|localized translateme template]] to achive this. Is that right way to do this? -- [[User:Tarakbumba|tarakbumba]] 10:03, 28 March 2012 (EDT)
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*http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Wiki_Translation seems to be using namespaces (though with kind of an i18n template and note it doesn't use interlanguage inks)
:Yes, I warmly suggest you to use [[ArchWiki Translation Team (Türkçe)]] for organizing translations, you can also take example from what other languages are already doing. -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] 06:16, 29 March 2012 (EDT)
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I think this can be enough for now, as you can see it's quite intricate, I don't even have a clear idea about what's my preference at the moment, let's see if somebody can help sort out the ideas.
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-- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 20:48, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
  
== MediaWiki translation extension ==
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:I like (2) -- a single non-English namespace. I had never even considered this option before! This will solve the biggest problem with our current implementation -- non-English articles polluting search results and other special pages -- whilst still promoting external wikis with interlanguage links as the "ideal" solution.
Speaking of multi language support for MediaWiki. It does have an extension to support translation. See: http://translatewiki.net/wiki/Main_Page. Here is forum proposal [https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=128610] and bug {{bug|26638}}. As a user of KDE userbase and techbase, I think this extension is exactly what Arch wiki need. But again, lack of man power to do it.
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:(We must keep in mind that, in the end, separate external wikis is the only ''complete'' solution to provide non-English readers with a fully-internationalized interface (as long as we are running MediaWiki, that is). Everything else at this point is simply a stepping-stone toward that goal.)
:Exactly, time's not ripe for talking about this. Please for now let's use the suffix method as consistently as possible: if one day another method will be enforced, it will be much easier to handle at least some parts of the transition automatically with bots or other scripts. -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] 06:01, 30 March 2012 (EDT)
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:Creating separate namespaces for each language would quickly complicate maintenance, as you note, and add little benefit over the single-namespace solution. -- [[User:Pointone|pointone]] ([[User talk:Pointone|talk]]) 14:27, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
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::Yeah I too tend to prefer solution (2), especially in the form of [[Lang:pt/Lorem Ipsum]] because that would group articles by language in alphabetical lists.
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::I'd use [[Template:pt/Lorem Ipsum]] and [[:Category:pt/Lorem Ipsum]], but [[Lang:pt/Help:Lorem Ipsum]] and [[:Lang:pt/ArchWiki:Lorem Ipsum]] for special namespaces.
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::The bot should be able to convert <nowiki>{{Lowercase title}}</nowiki> to <nowiki>{{DISPLAYTITLE:...}}</nowiki> in existing articles, but when a user copies an English article for translating it, he should remember to do that conversion by himself. Alternatives can be abolishing Template:Lowercase_title or using parser functions to detect the actual title (without the prefix).
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::-- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 16:16, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
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::Note that the format [[Lang:es/Title]] wouldn't be possible, only [[Lang:Es/Title]] or [[Lang:ES/Title]] would. -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 14:42, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
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::Alternative formats (better isolate the title from the prefix, for readability when displayed in the h1 at the top of the page, especially with short titles): [[Lang:UK / KDE]], [[Lang:UK KDE]], [[Lang:UK - KDE]], [[Lang:UK ~ KDE]], [[Lang:(uk) KDE]] (parentheses should allow lowercase tags, note that square brackets would require html entities to be used in links), [[Lang:Українська KDE]], [[Lang:Українська - KDE]]... -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 16:11, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
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::Some considerations about restricting searches to a particular language:
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::*both solutions (1) and (2) would give English-only results by default;
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::*solution (1) would allow to select the right language namespace in the advanced search interface;
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::*solution (2) would require to add the name of the language to the search keywords (this is how it's already working), but only if the full language names are retained in the titles (i.e. they aren't replaced by language tags like in [[Title (Español)]] -> [[Lang:ES/Title]])
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::-- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 04:08, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
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:Moving here the considerations about interlanguage links and Templates/Categories (interlanguage links cannot be used directly with Templates and Categories if language namespaces are implemented):
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:*Use special i18n templates for Categories and Templates
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:*Create a redirect for each category and template: for example [[Lang:it/Category:Laptops]] redirects to [[:Category:it/Laptops]] which would make it possible to use an interlanguage link like [[:it:Category:Laptops]] from e.g. [[:Category:Laptops]]
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:-- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 19:36, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
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 +
::More random notes:
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::* {{ic|<nowiki>{{Lowercase title}}</nowiki>}} shouldn't be converted to {{ic|<nowiki>{{DISPLAYTITLE:...}}</nowiki>}} if the language tags are at the start of the title (right after the namespace), in fact the real title could be directly converted to the correct case.
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::* A [[Template:Local title]] or similar could be created and put on every translation to prettify the localized titles through [[mw:Help:Magic words#Page names]] (would require setting [[mw:Manual:$wgRestrictDisplayTitle|$wgRestrictDisplayTitle]] to false).
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::** For example if the titles were of the form [[Lang:Zh-CN/Local title/Subpage]] the template could be {{ic|<nowiki>{{DISPLAYTITLE:{{lcfirst:{{PAGENAME}}}}}}</nowiki>}} to display "zh-CN/Local title/Subpage".
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::** If we wanted to keep the current format, the titles could be of the form [[Lang:Local title/Subpage (简体中文)]] or [[Lang:Local title (简体中文)/Subpage]] (see also [[Help talk:Style#Localized subpages]]), and the template could be {{ic|<nowiki>{{DISPLAYTITLE:{{PAGENAME}}}}</nowiki>}} to display "Local title/Subpage (简体中文)" or "Local title (简体中文)/Subpage". This template would require explicitly making the first letter of the title lowercase when necessary, like in the English page.
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::** Quite cool and flexible, if the titles were of the form [[Lang:Local title/Subpage/zh-CN]] we could play with the tag through {{ic|<nowiki>{{SUBPAGENAME}}</nowiki>}} and put it wherever we want (and change it in the future); for example the template could be {{ic|<nowiki>{{DISPLAYTITLE:{{BASEPAGENAME}} [{{SUBPAGENAME}}]}}</nowiki>}} to display "Local title/Subpage [zh-CN]", or {{ic|<nowiki>{{DISPLAYTITLE:[{{SUBPAGENAME}}] {{BASEPAGENAME}}}}</nowiki>}} to display "[zh-CN] Local title/Subpage". This template would require explicitly making the first letter of the title lowercase when necessary, like in the English page. Also, there won't be the advantage of having the pages grouped by language in article lists.
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:::Also note that {{ic|<nowiki>{{DISPLAYTITLE}}</nowiki>}} properly affects the HTML page title, so that the pretty format is displayed in browser tab, window title... and web search engine results!
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::-- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 13:50, 5 July 2014 (UTC) (Last edit: 03:31, 27 June 2015 (UTC))
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=== Back-end changes ===
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This reform would require two changes to the back-end: creating the new namespace and updating the local interlanguage links. The latter is trivial, but we have to make a final decision on the new namespace name, so let's put it to vote in [[#Poll]]. Only one vote per user, you can change your vote as many times as you want before the poll is closed. You can add more options if you want. Please add comments here, not under the poll. — [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 01:00, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
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:In the discussion above, most of the considerations about [[mw:DISPLAYTITLE|DISPLAYTITLE]] are false, unless [[mw:Manual:$wgRestrictDisplayTitle|$wgRestrictDisplayTitle]] is set to false. -- [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 08:08, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
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::I'd go with the "L10n" prefix, as it makes clear that translated pages are ''adaptations'' of their respective English versions [http://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-i18n] and must be kept as true to the original as possible. Both "I18n" and "L10n" are also common in Arch packaging [https://www.archlinux.org/packages/?sort=&q=l10n&maintainer=&flagged=] [https://www.archlinux.org/packages/?sort=&q=i18n&maintainer=&flagged=]. If we go with L10n, we should likely rename this page as well.
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::That said, as we're the only ones likely to vote here, we should agree on a name instead of all voting on a different one. :P
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::-- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 11:46, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
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:::I think what also matters is how readable localized titles would look on web engine search results, e.g. in https://www.google.com/search?q=archwiki+main+page , and this probably also depends on the language prefix/suffix format we choose to enforce. If we decide for the "NS:CODE/Title" format, probably "Lang" is indeed a better-looking solution; on the other hand, if we kept language suffixes, e.g. "NS:Title (Language)", "Lang" wouldn't introduce the language code anymore, and it wouldn't look as good, so in that case "L10n" may be the best option. For this reason I think we should open a poll for the language format first. — [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 04:03, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
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::::Regarding [[#Poll (syntax)]], what does the "Local title" part mean? Shouldn't it be just "Title", i.e. the title of the relevant English page as it is now? -- [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 12:57, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
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:::::Sorry, I blindly copy-pasted the examples above, I've fixed the poll. Allowing localized titles would be something that I wanted to discuss later on. — [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 03:39, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
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MediaWiki has a new related feature since 1.24, see "Manually changing page language" in [[mw:Manual:Language#Page_content_language]]. It is not enabled by default, but since we don't use the Translate extension, it would come in handy for us. -- [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 13:29, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
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:I've just tested it in my local testing wiki, but I don't see much use for that feature honestly... Or maybe I haven't understood what it should do? (Not much according to the "What does it define?" section in [[mw:Manual:Language#Page_content_language]]) Also, the language doesn't seem to be set automatically based on the title, but it should be set with periodic bot runs (with an ad-hoc script). — [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 13:46, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
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::I thought that it would produce better search results when using a search engine like Google, but it appears that the language is already recognized correctly. Anyway, fixing the {{ic|lang}} attribute of the {{ic|html}} tag manually "just because" is probably not worth the effort. -- [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 14:23, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
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:::I'm not surprised that Google detects the language of a page without relying on html attributes, anyway I didn't make the connection between your observation and my concerns about search engine results, sorry for the misunderstanding :)
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:::But does the {{ic|lang}} attribute really change? I've just checked in my local wiki and it stays "en" no matter what language I set for my test page... O_o
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:::— [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 11:01, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
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====<s> Poll (namespace) </s>====
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 +
'''Lang'''
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* [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 08:14, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
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* ''[vote here with <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>]''
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'''Int'''
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* ''[vote here with <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>]''
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'''Local'''
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* ''[vote here with <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>]''
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'''Loc'''
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* ''[vote here with <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>]''
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'''I18n'''
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* ''[vote here with <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>]''
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'''L10n'''
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* ''[vote here with <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>]''
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 +
==== Poll (syntax) ====
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 +
Lang:ES/Title/Subpage
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Lang:ZH-CN/Title/Subpage
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* [[User:Fengchao|Fengchao]] ([[User talk:Fengchao|talk]]) 12:45, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
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* ''[vote here with <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>]''
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L10n:Title/Subpage (Español)
  
==<s>"Dummy" interlanguage links and deprecation of Template:i18n</s>==
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L10n:Title/Subpage (简体中文)
With this discussion I'd like to propose the implementation of "dummy" interlanguage links also for the languages hosted in wiki.archlinux.org as initially proposed (as far as I know) by [[User:pointone]] in {{bug|17580}}. Such a system would replace [[Template:i18n]].
 
  
I've revived this idea because with the latest developments to my bot ([[Wiki Monkey]]) I can now handle the transition with relative ease, see also [[#Bot algorithm]] below.
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* ''[vote here with <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>]''
  
Using interlanguage links instead of [[Template:i18n]] would give several advantages:
 
*Grouping all language links in one place (currently local languages are in template i18n and external languages are in the left column)
 
*Consistency with the behaviour of other wikis, e.g. Wikipedia
 
*Restoration of the functionality of [[Special:DeadendPages]], [[Special:LonelyPages]], [[Special:WithoutInterwiki]], [[Special:WantedCategories]], [[Special:WantedPages]] and [[Special:WantedTemplates]]
 
*If a language moves to its own wiki, its articles are already ready with interlanguage links
 
  
Since version 1.11.0, [[Wiki Monkey]] should allow users to synchronize the interlanguage links of an article with the others of its "ring", although of course this feature hasn't yet been tested on large scale and will probably need to be fine tuned.
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L10n:Title/Subpage/Español
  
Anybody interested? :)
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L10n:Title/Subpage/简体中文
  
-- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 11:57, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
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[+ set $wgRestrictDisplayTitle to false and prettify with DISPLAYTITLE]
  
:I fully support this idea. I would like to suggest at this point, since we are already considering a massive restructuring project and have a dedicated technical maintainer (thanks, Kynikos!) that we also migrate to the "namespace" solution at the same time. How much harder would this be to implement? -- [[User:Pointone|pointone]] ([[User talk:Pointone|talk]]) 14:34, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
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* ''[vote here with <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>]''
  
::Thank you for your support! About the namespace solution, it would be a lot harder to implement it at the same time of the dummy links thing, so let's discuss it in [[#Language namespace(s) in place of suffixes]], also because it's not so straightforward and there are some aspects that should be evaluated carefully.
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== Moving Japanese pages to new external wiki ==
::I'd like to read here possible opposing arguments to the dummy links idea, and instead, I'd like people in favour to answer [[#Dummy links format]], [[#Interlanguage links sort order]] and possibly help with [[#Bot algorithm]].
 
::-- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 17:32, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
 
  
:::One problem I foresee is related to migration of a language to an external wiki. Once we are using dummy interlanguage links, it becomes more difficult to migrate content to an external wiki because there is no simple way to have both internal interlanguage links and external interwiki links for that language at the same time. Once the migration is complete, we would update the interwiki table to point to the external site, but during the migration (which has lasted months, in some cases) we would need a temporary solution. -- [[User:Pointone|pointone]] ([[User talk:Pointone|talk]]) 14:06, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
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I made new Japanese community website ([https://archlinuxjp.kusakata.com/]) and its wiki ([https://archlinuxjp.kusakata.com/wiki/]). Migraiton of wiki pages has been already completed, so everything should work. Please change "ja" interlanguage link to point to {{ic|<nowiki>https://archlinuxjp.kusakata.com/wiki/$1</nowiki>}}, and I'm going to fix ja links of each page whose title was translated into Japanese in new wiki. For original Japanese pages, I'd like to put {{ic|<nowiki>#redirect[[ja:<page title>]]</nowiki>}} in their contents rather than to delete them completely, because if these pages are linked by external websites they'll dead. Although, if that leaving redirects should be a nuisance, I will agree to remove all.
  
::::Good point, a possible solution I can think of is to create temporary interwiki links (e.g. [[:ko-temp:Article]]) so that regular interlanguage links (e.g. [[:ko:Article]]) still point to the local articles (e.g. [[Article (한국어)]]), which can in turn redirect to the respective external articles, if existing, through the temporary interwiki links. Ugly, but I guess working. -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 16:06, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
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Japanese website's url is provisional, I want to move to the appropriate address (archlinux.jp) but the domain currently acquired by someone. She or he seems to be satisfied with just getting this domain before starting to make the contents, therefore I instead started to. I'll wait until the domain be expired and acquirable or the present holder contact me (He/She might notice due to interlanguage links changing). When I find neither come (at the date of next expiration), I think to get and use other domain looking good (but `archlinux.jp` is the best I guess).
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-- [[User:Kusakata|Kusakata]] ([[User talk:Kusakata|talk]]) 07:56, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
  
:::::Note that this solution would require updating the [http://projects.archlinux.org/vhosts/wiki.archlinux.org.git/tree/languages/Names.php Names.php] file in order to recognize the prefix as a language link rather than a random interwiki link. -- [[User:Pointone|pointone]] ([[User talk:Pointone|talk]]) 16:51, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
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:Hi! That's great! Your contributions in Japanese wiki are very impressive :D.
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:I think {{ic|archlinux.org.jp}} is also very appropriate, and it seems it's free now. Maybe you would try to obtain it now? Current owner of archlinux.jp may don't want to share with your intentions and anyway it will expire only at summer.. =\ — [[User:Blackx|blackx]] ([[User_talk:Blackx|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Blackx|contribs]]) 09:39, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
  
::::::I'm not sure I get it, I can make redirects work even with regular interwiki links (e.g. {{ic|#REDIRECT <nowiki>[[wikipedia:Main Page]]</nowiki>}}), at least in edit previews ^^ Unless I didn't explain well my idea, which, I remark, is not aimed at making temporary interlanguage links, only redirects.
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::Thank you for your suggestion, but ".or.jp" domains can be obtained only by the judicial person authorized by the government ([http://jprs.co.jp/en/jpdomain.html source]). It takes a lot of time and money to obtain approval from a government office. Using ".jp" second-level-domains like ".or.jp" is not easy. -- [[User:Kusakata|Kusakata]] ([[User talk:Kusakata|talk]]) 10:57, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
::::::A possible question could be instead if we should apply this method also for the few existing French, Finnish and Swedish articles (my position is "no").
 
::::::-- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 17:30, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
 
  
:::::::Of course, I misunderstood your idea. Ignore me! With regards to existing languages in transition I think we should be working harder to contact members of their respective communities to put together a coordinated effort to finish-off the migrations! (So, I agree -- "no.") -- [[User:Pointone|pointone]] ([[User talk:Pointone|talk]]) 16:28, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
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:Great job Kusakata! In order to update the interwiki links we need to patch the database directly, so it's not an immediate thing because we have to go through a Developer, but of course I'll take care of this on high priority, considering the huge effort you've put into this :)
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:About the interwiki redirects, they've always been forbidden by [[Help:Style#Redirect pages]], but I also understand the need not to break existing external links: perhaps we could keep the redirects for a while, then start progressively deleting them making sure to add the link to the .jp page in the deletion message.
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:Finally, can I ask you what method you've used to export/import all the Japanese articles? For example have you used the API with a bot, or [[Special:Export]]/[[Special:Import]], or manually copy/pasted the content, or...
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:— [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 14:34, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
  
:Ok, the plugin for the bot is practically ready: this discussion hasn't received objections, asking for feedback on the English forum wouldn't make sense, and opening threads in non-English forums would require too much effort, so I'm considering this plan admin-approved.
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::I'm happy you said so. Your solution about the redirects sounds reasonable to me. To answer your question, I've used the second method, roughly speaking. I had all Japanese pages exported, and I made necessary changes to their titles and categories (if appropriate, I translated them into Japanese), internal links (stripping {{ic|(日本語)}} from {{ic|<nowiki>[[some page (日本語)]]</nowiki>}}) with exported .xml files. After that, these .xml files were imported into new Japanese wiki. To reduce processing load, I divided into several times (category by category). However, some pages I initially set about were manually copied. -- [[User:Kusakata|Kusakata]] ([[User talk:Kusakata|talk]]) 03:24, 21 February 2015 (UTC)
:I'll announce the change in [[ArchWiki:News]] once I'm ready to start.
 
:-- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 11:45, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
 
  
::I think the transition is complete, except for the fact that I will delete the instances of [[Template:Temporary i18n]] progressively over the next days.
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:::Update: patch sent to Pierre by email.
::Please report any bugs that may have arisen. A known bug is that the removal of [[Template:i18n]] and repositioning of existing interlanguage links has revealed a gap at the top of some articles that had the elements in the header misplaced: removing the responsible empty line fixes the problem, in fact there should be no empty line before the first line of content.
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:::Thanks for explaining, we've never tried a large-sized migration with the export/import tools, and it's good to see that it can work. Have you exported only the last revisions or the whole histories of the pages?
::-- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 19:36, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
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:::— [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 15:24, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
  
===<s>Dummy links format</s>===
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::::Very glad, very thankful. To include all histories of pages is undoubtedly better, thus I tried to. Although exporting went fine, importing went wrong. Somehow it's too severe for my server. I was able to export/import a page with its history, but I couldn't do several pages at once. Finally, I've exported only the last revisions. -- [[User:Kusakata|Kusakata]] ([[User talk:Kusakata|talk]]) 17:42, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
If the "dummy" links idea is approved, there are two ways they can work:
 
#Links add the language suffix implicitly (so for example the interlinks in [[Xfce]] would be [[:bg:Xfce]], [[:cs:Xfce]]...)
 
#*this way is neater, but if one day we want to implement the "namespace" method for managing local translations instead of the current "suffix" method, Templates and Categories won't be able to use interlanguage links, and will probably need special i18n templates
 
#Links must be added with the language suffix (so for example the interlinks in [[Xfce]] would be [[:bg:Xfce (Български)]], [[:cs:Xfce (Česky)]]...)
 
  
Thoughts? -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 11:57, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
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:::::Special:Import is affected by PHP's limit on maximum file size for uploads, see e.g. [https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help:Import#Large-scale_transfer]. Other import methods are described [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Importing_XML_dumps here], depending on how much control you have over the server there may be better solutions than Special:Import. -- [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 17:51, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
: I like the first idea. Links or title with foregin characters are much harder to maintain. I can not read them or edit them or even see them if the fonts are missing. Even as a Chinese user, open chinese pages is takes more time when searching because I have to swith between input method. To ease this task, I always search and open English page first and then click on i18n link. [[:zh_CN:Xfce]] is easier to type and already contain all language info.   -- [[User:Fengchao|Fengchao]] ([[User talk:Fengchao|talk]]) 07:21, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
 
  
::Adding the language suffix automatically makes more sense to me. With regards to templates and categories, this is only a problem if we have a single "local" namespace, right? If every language has its own namespace, I don't see why this would cause problems. -- [[User:Pointone|pointone]] ([[User talk:Pointone|talk]]) 14:06, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
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::::::I see. It appears that PHP's timeout rather than uploading limit is a problem. Despite how many revisions are included within pages, the more pages I attempt to import at a time, the longer time it takes. Other methods might helpful but I shall not do it now. Actually, the whole histories of cardinal pages were imported. -- [[User:Kusakata|Kusakata]] ([[User talk:Kusakata|talk]]) 08:07, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
  
:::No, solution 1) prevents interlanguage links to templates and categories in every case: if each language has its namespace and we want to make it implicit in interlinks, these will have to be designed like <nowiki>http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Nederlands:$1</nowiki>, thus making it impossible to link to templates and categories :) -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 16:06, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
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:Japanese links changed! I'm fixing/adding missing ja links, but I cannot edit the protected pages. Please edit following pages, instead of me:
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:*[[:Category:Help‎]] → {{ic|<nowiki>[[ja:カテゴリ:ヘルプ]]</nowiki>}}
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:*[[Forum etiquette‎‎]] → {{ic|<nowiki>[[ja:フォーラムエチケット]]</nowiki>}}
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:*[[Installation guide‎‎]] → {{ic|<nowiki>[[ja:インストールガイド]]</nowiki>}}
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:*[[Beginners' guide]] → {{ic|<nowiki>[[ja:ビギナーズガイド]]</nowiki>}}
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:*[[Arch compared to other distributions]] → {{ic|<nowiki>[[ja:Arch と他のディストリビューションの比較]]</nowiki>}}
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:*[[Main page‎]] → {{ic|<nowiki>[[ja:メインページ]]</nowiki>}}
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:*[[Arch packaging standards‎]] → {{ic|<nowiki>[[ja:Arch パッケージングスタンダード]]</nowiki>}}
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:Thank you. -- [[User:Kusakata|Kusakata]] ([[User talk:Kusakata|talk]]) 13:10, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
  
:An alternative to special i18n templates for Categories and Templates, in case of solution 1) with language namespaces, would be to create a redirect for each category and template: for example [[Lang:it/Category:Laptops]] redirects to [[:Category:it/Laptops]] and this would make it possible to use an interlanguage link like [[:it:Category:Laptops]] from e.g. [[:Category:Laptops]]. -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 15:16, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
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::All done.
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::Let's keep this open until the interlanguage redirects will have been deleted according to [[Help:Style]]: they can be found with [[Help:I18n#Finding_articles_with_specific_interlanguage_links]].
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::...or we can change the style rule and allow interlanguage (but not generic interwiki) redirects, what do the other admins think? Interwiki redirects were banned because it was deemed confusing to be thrown to another website, also in general without editing rights, after clicking on an internal link. Do we want to make an exception for interlanguage redirects? I'm a bit undecided at the moment...
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::[[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 04:33, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
  
::Well, solution 2 is indeed flexible, but doesn't make much sense, and solution 1 has workarounds for templates and categories, so (1) is approved. -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 11:45, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
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:::Japanese templates (and perhaps also categories?) can be deleted right away. Redirects for content pages and their talk pages can stay as long as necessary, I wouldn't mind if that's forever. As for the exception from the rule, interlanguage redirects should stay under control. The state could be checked once in a while with a script (not written yet, should be simple). How about "Interlanguage redirects can be set up only with consent of the Maintenance Team"? -- [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 20:45, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
  
::Also note that solution 2 would make the possible transition to language namespaces much more difficult, in fact when renaming an article, all its interlanguage backlinks should be updated, and that's not as easy and safe as updating normal backlinks. -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 12:54, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
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::::+1 for everything (templates/categories, exception and script), I've updated [[Special:Diff/357860/363352|Help:Style]] and [[Special:Diff/363185/363351|Help:i18n]] accordingly. [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 03:02, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
  
===<s>Link sort order</s>===
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::::I've just finished deleting all the categories. [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 02:32, 5 April 2015 (UTC)
For what I've seen around, the sorting order of interlanguage links is a common problem in many wikis: what will be our standard? I think there are 2 main choices:
 
# Sorting alphabetically based on the local language name (e.g. [[:fr:Article]] comes before [[:fi:Article]])
 
# Sorting alphabetically based on the language tag (e.g. [[:fi:Article]] comes before [[:fr:Article]])
 
  
I vote for 1). -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 17:32, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
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:The day before yesterday, {{ic|archlinux.jp}} domain should have expired. However, the holder of this domain has extended the term and seems not to dispose of it. I can't wait any longer. As planned, I've got another domain: [https://www.archlinuxjp.org/ archlinuxjp.org]. Now the access to "archlinuxjp.kusakata.com" is redirected to "archlinuxjp.org". And, I also changed our MediaWiki's URL structure to the same as "wiki.archlinux.org", which means {{ic|<nowiki>https://archlinuxjp.kusakata.com/wiki/$1</nowiki>}} became {{ic|<nowiki>https://wiki.archlinuxjp.org/index.php/$1</nowiki>}}. Please update Japanese interlanguage links again, and no further changes about Japanese website's addresses might come. -- [[User:Kusakata|Kusakata]] ([[User talk:Kusakata|talk]]) 16:29, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
  
:I vote for (2) -- sorting alphabetically based on the language tag -- in the name of simplicity! For those not using a bot, it is much simpler to look at the first letter overall than the individual <s>article</s> language names. Also, we eliminate the problem associated with sorting non-Latin characters. -- [[User:Pointone|pointone]] ([[User talk:Pointone|talk]]) 14:10, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
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::Thank you Kusakata, I've opened a pull request for that[https://github.com/pierres/archlinux-mediawiki/pull/1]. [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 14:02, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
  
::Ok, method 2 is approved: the sort order will have to be documented in [[Help:i18n]], [[Help:Style]]... -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 11:45, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
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:::I confirmed interlanguage ja links updated. Thank you. -- [[User:Kusakata|Kusakata]] ([[User talk:Kusakata|talk]]) 17:46, 30 August 2015 (UTC)
  
===<s>Bot algorithm</s>===
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== Move/Merge articles to external wikis ==
If the "dummy" links idea is approved, this is the bot algorithm that will be used for automating the transition: please help make it as smart as possible (no signatures required for edits to this section).
 
  
Prerequisites:
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''[Moved from [[ArchWiki:Requests#Move/Merge articles to external wikis]] [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 13:08, 20 March 2015 (UTC)]''
*<s>Actually add the interlanguage links to the database, see [[#Dummy links format]]</s>
 
**<s>First check that there aren't articles named like interlanguage links (e.g. [[:it:Blabla]])!!!</s>
 
*<s>Create the temporary template (see below)</s>
 
*Fix all double redirects, if any
 
*<s>Announce the change with a news entry and a post to https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=95360</s>
 
*Update the documentation related to internationalization, e.g. [[Help:i18n]], [[Help:Style]] etc.
 
  
The bot will be run on lists of articles (e.g. categories) and it will process every article one by one.
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Although Finnish and Serbian have their own wikis, we're still hosting some articles in those languages:
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*[https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Special%3ASearch&profile=advanced&search=suomi&fulltext=Search&ns0=1&ns1=1&ns2=1&ns3=1&ns4=1&ns5=1&ns6=1&ns7=1&ns8=1&ns9=1&ns10=1&ns11=1&ns12=1&ns13=1&ns14=1&ns15=1&redirs=1&profile=advanced Finnish articles]
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*Serbian articles: [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Special%3ASearch&profile=advanced&search=Српски&fulltext=Search&ns0=1&ns1=1&ns2=1&ns3=1&ns4=1&ns5=1&ns6=1&ns7=1&ns8=1&ns9=1&ns10=1&ns11=1&ns12=1&ns13=1&ns14=1&ns15=1&redirs=1&profile=advanced Српски], [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Special%3ASearch&profile=advanced&search=srpski&fulltext=Search&ns0=1&ns1=1&ns2=1&ns3=1&ns4=1&ns5=1&ns6=1&ns7=1&ns8=1&ns9=1&ns10=1&ns11=1&ns12=1&ns13=1&ns14=1&ns15=1&redirs=1&profile=advanced Srpski]
  
*For every article in the list:
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Some users of those wikis should probably be contacted in order to complete the move/merge, replacing those articles with interlanguage links at least on the respective English pages.
**If the article is not detected as English go to the next article in the list
 
**If it's detected as an English article:
 
***'''A)''' Collect the titles of all the existing articles that have the same English title for the other languages (avoid the languages that have local articles but also their own wiki, like French, Finnish and Swedish)
 
****For each of these titles (including the English one):
 
*****If it's a redirect, follow the redirect and recurse at A)
 
*****If it has an i18n template and the title in the i18n template doesn't correspond to the one of the article (except for the language suffix), use that title to recurse at A)
 
*****<s>If the title has the Temporary template (see below) raise an error and request manual intervention</s>
 
*****If a conflict is found (a title for a language that already had another title in the collection) raise an error and request manual intervention
 
**Once the collection is ready, create the string with the actual interlanguage links and add it to every article in the collection, either at the index of already existing interlanguage links, or in place of [[Template:i18n]] or by default at the top of the article; also add a temporary template to inform users of the change in i18n method
 
  
Once the bot reaches the end of the list:
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-- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 16:34, 10 May 2012 (UTC) (Last edit: 03:04, 22 September 2013 (UTC))
*Manually check [[Special:WhatLinksHere/Template:I18n]] and [[Special:WithoutInterwiki]] for the articles that haven't been processed and possibly re-run the bot on a new list.
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:: Many language wikis moved out and died. Lots of effort is wasted in wiki page move/import.  
*If nothing's left to do, delete all the instances of the Temporary template and delete the template itself.
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:: So I now have a strong feeling that we should host all localization pages instead of pushing them out.  
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:: --[[User:Fengchao|Fengchao]] ([[User talk:Fengchao|talk]]) 13:45, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
  
==Language namespace(s) in place of suffixes?==
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:::Well, confirming what I wrote in [[ArchWiki talk:Administrators#Cite extension]] (very last post, the rest is unrelated), I agree with you. If we want to start implementing [[Help_talk:I18n#Language_namespace.28s.29_in_place_of_suffixes.3F]], we need to have the new namespace configured and pushed to the repo: I opened {{Bug|35545}} a long time ago to facilitate this, and incidentally I'm currently trying to communicate with the devs for some back-end patches, hopefully making it to have that implemented too.
This discussion is about the possibility of replacing the current system of classification of the articles by language, using suffixes in the title, with a namespace-based system. This issue has currently a '''lower''' priority than [[#"Dummy" interlanguage links and deprecation of Template:i18n]].
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::: — [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 14:46, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
  
The main advantage would be that it would be possible to have only English articles as results when using the search engine, and, depending on the implementation of this idea, it may be possible also to select the language of the search.
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:::: Great. I like namespace :) This topic could be closed. --[[User:Fengchao|Fengchao]] ([[User talk:Fengchao|talk]]) 12:42, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
  
Another advantage would be that in article-list pages (such as those in [[Special:SpecialPages]]) that list articles alphabetically, all the articles for a language would be grouped together.
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:::::I'm reopening it here as a reminder until we really implement the namespace thing. — [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 13:08, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
  
There are many ways we can implement this solution, and each has its advantages and disadvantages; I'd like to also keep the current suffix solution in the discussion, for comparison and also because it has its advantages either.
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== Finnish and Swedish wikis ==
  
1) <u>Every language has its own namespace</u>
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The [http://www.archlinux.fi/wiki/ Finnish] and [http://wiki.archlinux.se/ Swedish] external wikis seem to be down for quite some time. -- [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 12:52, 19 July 2015 (UTC)
*This can be done either with '''local''' or '''English''' language names. '''Note''' that it's not possible to have namespaces named like interlanguage links! For example an article named [[:Ru:Some Title]] could currently be created, but once the ru interlanguage links are activated, that article won't be accessible anymore, and it will be possible to edit/delete it only via the API using its ID (this has already happened with an article that was named with "tr:...").
 
*This solution would create 2*N namespaces (where N is the number of languages) because every namespace must have a _talk namespace; I don't know what effect this would have on select menus and other interfaces that list the namespaces (e.g. in special pages filters).
 
*Examples:
 
:[[Dansk:Some Article]], [[Dansk talk:Some Article]], [[Magyar:Some Article]], ...
 
:[[Danish:Some Article]], [[Danish talk:Some Article]], [[Hungarian:Some Article]], ...
 
  
2) <u>There's one big namespace for non-English languages</u>
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:Both still down. Would be good to remove them from quick links.
*There are various possible choices for the name of the namespace: "Lang", "Local", "i18n", ???...
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:I clicked main page for all languages. The [http://wiki.archusers.ir/index.php/%D8%B5%D9%81%D8%AD%D9%87%D9%94_%D8%A7%D8%B5%D9%84%DB%8C Iranian] 404s, but resolves with a different [http://wiki.archusers.ir/%D8%B5%D9%81%D8%AD%D9%87%D9%94_%D8%A7%D8%B5%D9%84%DB%8C link]. Others are ok.  
*The language can be separated from the title with a colon, a slash or some other punctuation mark
+
:--[[User:Indigo|Indigo]] ([[User talk:Indigo|talk]]) 19:30, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
*We could use language tags or full language names
 
*Language names could still be suffixes or be part of the prefix
 
*This solution just adds 1 namespace and its associated talk
 
*Examples:
 
:[[Lang:pl/Some Article]], [[Lang talk:pl/Some Article]], [[Lang:zh-CN/Some Article]], ...
 
:[[Local:Some Article (Polski)]], [[Local talk:Some Article (Polski)]], [[Local:Some Article (简体中文)]], ...
 
  
3) <u>Some languages can have a proper namespace according to some objective rules based on the number of translations</u>
+
::Now {{ic|archlinux.fi}} redirects to an ad site. I suggest changing {{ic|fi}} back to {{ic|wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/xxx_(Suomi)}} and removing {{ic|sv}}. Iranian wiki is fixed. — [[User:Arza|Arza]] ([[User talk:Arza|talk]]) 15:15, 11 April 2017 (UTC)
*This is a hybrid solution (1-2)
 
*The rules could also require the translation of some important articles, see also http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_articles_every_Wikipedia_should_have
 
  
 +
:::Thank you for reporting it. — [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 10:04, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
  
Note that the namespace solution wouldn't be able to separate the languages completely, in fact we'd have to keep mixed Template and Category namespaces: how would we deal with those cases? Case 2) may have the simplest solution by using [[Template:es/Lorem Ipsum]] and [[:Category:es/Lorem Ipsum]] or something like that, and we'd still have the advantage of having templates and categories grouped by language in alphabetical lists. About the Help and ArchWiki namespaces we could do something similar.
+
== Turkish wiki unaccessible ==
  
Note that solution 2) would break the use of [[Template:Lowercase title]] in non-English articles. The only way to solve that problem would be using an extension that can parse substrings, or force using <nowiki>{{DISPLAYTITLE:...}}</nowiki>.
+
When visiting [http://archtr.org/wiki/index.php?title=AUR_Yard%C4%B1mc%C4%B1_Uygulamalar%C4%B1] and [http://archtr.org/wiki/index.php?title=Pacman_%C3%96ny%C3%BCzleri], I get the following error:
 +
MediaWiki does not function when magic quotes are enabled. Please see the PHP Manual for help on how to disable magic quotes.
 +
-- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 08:03, 20 September 2015 (UTC)
  
The bot algorithm to implement such a change should avoid creating redirects for every title, and instead it should update all the backlinks of every article (Wiki Monkey should be able to do that, it has already done a similar thing when removing the English suffix from category names, although in this case it would be a much bigger job).
+
:That appears to be resolved. Closing. --[[User:Indigo|Indigo]] ([[User talk:Indigo|talk]]) 19:34, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
  
References:
+
::Currently down and redirects to a forum. — [[User:Arza|Arza]] ([[User talk:Arza|talk]]) 15:17, 11 April 2017 (UTC)
*http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help:Namespace
 
*http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Using_custom_namespaces
 
**http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:$wgContentNamespaces
 
*http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Project:Language_policy
 
*http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Wiki_Translation seems to be using namespaces (though with kind of an i18n template and note it doesn't use interlanguage inks)
 
  
I think this can be enough for now, as you can see it's quite intricate, I don't even have a clear idea about what's my preference at the moment, let's see if somebody can help sort out the ideas.
+
:::Thank you for reporting it. — [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 10:04, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
  
-- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 20:48, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
+
== Status update ==
  
:I like (2) -- a single non-English namespace. I had never even considered this option before! This will solve the biggest problem with our current implementation -- non-English articles polluting search results and other special pages -- whilst still promoting external wikis with interlanguage links as the "ideal" solution.
+
I am sorry if this is not related here. I would like to know that has any conclusion been made about changing the back-end of all I18n articles?  More importantly, is translation work still encouraged here in ArchWiki? --[[User:NonerKao|NonerKao]] ([[User talk:NonerKao|talk]]) 13:16, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
:(We must keep in mind that, in the end, separate external wikis is the only ''complete'' solution to provide non-English readers with a fully-internationalized interface (as long as we are running MediaWiki, that is). Everything else at this point is simply a stepping-stone toward that goal.)
 
:Creating separate namespaces for each language would quickly complicate maintenance, as you note, and add little benefit over the single-namespace solution. -- [[User:Pointone|pointone]] ([[User talk:Pointone|talk]]) 14:27, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
 
  
::Yeah I too tend to prefer solution (2), especially in the form of [[Lang:pt/Lorem Ipsum]] because that would group articles by language in alphabetical lists.
+
:# No, for the moment there's no change to internationalization rules, however any change would probably be carried out with bots, so you can keep translating normally. This also means that you're still in time to express your opinion, if you have something to add.
::I'd use [[Template:pt/Lorem Ipsum]] and [[:Category:pt/Lorem Ipsum]], but [[Lang:pt/Help:Lorem Ipsum]] and [[:Lang:pt/ArchWiki:Lorem Ipsum]] for special templates.
+
:# Yes, translation work is fully supported: in the past the policy was to encourage the establishment of external wikis for non-English articles, but more recently this view seems to have changed, and for example I tend to support local translations because translators tend to bring additional improvements to English articles too, although an official stand on this issue has never been made. Note however that local translations have the disadvantage that many parts of the wiki interface aren't affected by the language preferences set by each user, so they will always be displayed in English.
::The bot should be able to convert <nowiki>{{Lowercase title}}</nowiki> to <nowiki>{{DISPLAYTITLE:...}}</nowiki> in existing articles, but when a user copies an English article for translating it, he should remember to do that conversion by himself. Alternatives can be abolishing Template:Lowercase_title or using parser functions to detect the actual title (without the prefix).
+
:[[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 04:05, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
::-- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 16:16, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
 
  
:Moving here the considerations about interlanguage links and Templates/Categories (interlanguage links cannot be used directly with Templates and Categories if language namespaces are implemented):
+
::OK, let me share some rough thoughts here.  As a tranditional Chinese(TC below) user, actually I feel that current I18n policy is quite good and acceptable, because some of the TC users has made some conventions and newcomers like me can easily follow them.  I can maintaining, translating as many pages as I want.
:*Use special i18n templates for Categories and Templates
+
::However I also acknowledge that it might be a totally different story for administrators for management purpose.  So, I am kind of neutral about future changes on this issue.  Everything is fine now, but if the current state really bothers managers, matainers and normal archers, then I would vote for change as well. 
:*Create a redirect for each category and template: for example [[Lang:it/Category:Laptops]] redirects to [[:Category:it/Laptops]] which would make it possible to use an interlanguage link like [[:it:Category:Laptops]] from e.g. [[:Category:Laptops]]
+
::Maybe the long silence of this discussion indicates that this issue does not, in fact, bother many people. [[User:NonerKao|NonerKao]] ([[User talk:NonerKao|talk]]) 04:43, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
:-- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 19:36, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
 

Latest revision as of 08:56, 17 October 2017

Regarding ArchWiki internationalization

There have been a number of discussions about this over the years: 2006, 2007, 2009, and 2010. In short, there are a number of potential solutions; none are perfect. Currently, the interwiki implementation is considered "best" because it provides non-English users with a fully-localized experience and isolates each language. Other "good" solutions include the creation of language-specific namespaces or migration to a different wiki which provides "better" internationalization options -- but require more effort to implement. -- pointone 16:07, 21 October 2011 (EDT)

See also #Language namespace(s) in place of suffixes? for a more recent discussion. -- Kynikos (talk) 16:06, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

MediaWiki translation extension

Speaking of multi language support for MediaWiki. It does have an extension to support translation. See: http://translatewiki.net/wiki/Main_Page. Here is forum proposal [1] and bug FS#26638. As a user of KDE userbase and techbase, I think this extension is exactly what Arch wiki need. But again, lack of man power to do it.

Exactly, time's not ripe for talking about this. Please for now let's use the suffix method as consistently as possible: if one day another method will be enforced, it will be much easier to handle at least some parts of the transition automatically with bots or other scripts. -- Kynikos 06:01, 30 March 2012 (EDT)

Language namespace(s) in place of suffixes?

This discussion is about the possibility of replacing the current system of classification of the articles by language, using suffixes in the title, with a namespace-based system. This issue has currently a lower priority than #"Dummy" interlanguage links and deprecation of Template:i18n.

The main advantage would be that it would be possible to have only English articles as results when using the search engine, and, depending on the implementation of this idea, it may be possible also to select the language of the search.

Another advantage would be that in article-list pages (such as those in Special:SpecialPages) that list articles alphabetically, all the articles for a language would be grouped together.

There are many ways we can implement this solution, and each has its advantages and disadvantages; I'd like to also keep the current suffix solution in the discussion, for comparison and also because it has its advantages too.

1) Every language has its own namespace

  • This can be done either with local or English language names. Note that it's not possible to have namespaces named like interlanguage links! For example an article named Ru:Some Title could currently be created, but once the ru interlanguage links are activated, that article won't be accessible anymore, and it will be possible to edit/delete it only via the API using its ID (this has already happened with an article that was named with "tr:...").
  • This solution would create 2*N namespaces (where N is the number of languages) because every namespace must have a _talk namespace; I don't know what effect this would have on select menus and other interfaces that list the namespaces (e.g. in special pages filters).
  • Examples:
Dansk:Some Article, Dansk talk:Some Article, Magyar:Some Article, ...
Danish:Some Article, Danish talk:Some Article, Hungarian:Some Article, ...

2) There's one big namespace for non-English languages

  • There are various possible choices for the name of the namespace: "Lang", "Local", "i18n", ???...
  • The language can be separated from the title with a colon, a slash or some other punctuation mark
  • We could use language tags or full language names
  • Language names could still be suffixes or be part of the prefix
  • This solution just adds 1 namespace and its associated talk
  • Examples:
Lang:pl/Some Article, Lang talk:pl/Some Article, Lang:zh-CN/Some Article, ...
Local:Some Article (Polski), Local talk:Some Article (Polski), Local:Some Article (简体中文), ...

3) Some languages can have a proper namespace according to some objective rules based on the number of translations


Note that the namespace solution wouldn't be able to separate the languages completely, in fact we'd have to keep mixed Template and Category namespaces: how would we deal with those cases? Case 2) may have the simplest solution by using Template:es/Lorem Ipsum and Category:es/Lorem Ipsum or something like that, and we'd still have the advantage of having templates and categories grouped by language in alphabetical lists. About the Help and ArchWiki namespaces we could do something similar.

Note that solution 2) would break the use of Template:Lowercase title in non-English articles. The only way to solve that problem would be using an extension that can parse substrings, or force using {{DISPLAYTITLE:...}}.

The bot algorithm to implement such a change should avoid creating redirects for every title, and instead it should update all the backlinks of every article (Wiki Monkey should be able to do that, it has already done a similar thing when removing the English suffix from category names, although in this case it would be a much bigger job).

References:

I think this can be enough for now, as you can see it's quite intricate, I don't even have a clear idea about what's my preference at the moment, let's see if somebody can help sort out the ideas.

-- Kynikos (talk) 20:48, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

I like (2) -- a single non-English namespace. I had never even considered this option before! This will solve the biggest problem with our current implementation -- non-English articles polluting search results and other special pages -- whilst still promoting external wikis with interlanguage links as the "ideal" solution.
(We must keep in mind that, in the end, separate external wikis is the only complete solution to provide non-English readers with a fully-internationalized interface (as long as we are running MediaWiki, that is). Everything else at this point is simply a stepping-stone toward that goal.)
Creating separate namespaces for each language would quickly complicate maintenance, as you note, and add little benefit over the single-namespace solution. -- pointone (talk) 14:27, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
Yeah I too tend to prefer solution (2), especially in the form of Lang:pt/Lorem Ipsum because that would group articles by language in alphabetical lists.
I'd use Template:pt/Lorem Ipsum and Category:pt/Lorem Ipsum, but Lang:pt/Help:Lorem Ipsum and Lang:pt/ArchWiki:Lorem Ipsum for special namespaces.
The bot should be able to convert {{Lowercase title}} to {{DISPLAYTITLE:...}} in existing articles, but when a user copies an English article for translating it, he should remember to do that conversion by himself. Alternatives can be abolishing Template:Lowercase_title or using parser functions to detect the actual title (without the prefix).
-- Kynikos (talk) 16:16, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
Note that the format Lang:es/Title wouldn't be possible, only Lang:Es/Title or Lang:ES/Title would. -- Kynikos (talk) 14:42, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
Alternative formats (better isolate the title from the prefix, for readability when displayed in the h1 at the top of the page, especially with short titles): Lang:UK / KDE, Lang:UK KDE, Lang:UK - KDE, Lang:UK ~ KDE, Lang:(uk) KDE (parentheses should allow lowercase tags, note that square brackets would require html entities to be used in links), Lang:Українська KDE, Lang:Українська - KDE... -- Kynikos (talk) 16:11, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
Some considerations about restricting searches to a particular language:
  • both solutions (1) and (2) would give English-only results by default;
  • solution (1) would allow to select the right language namespace in the advanced search interface;
  • solution (2) would require to add the name of the language to the search keywords (this is how it's already working), but only if the full language names are retained in the titles (i.e. they aren't replaced by language tags like in Title (Español) -> Lang:ES/Title)
-- Kynikos (talk) 04:08, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
Moving here the considerations about interlanguage links and Templates/Categories (interlanguage links cannot be used directly with Templates and Categories if language namespaces are implemented):
-- Kynikos (talk) 19:36, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
More random notes:
  • {{Lowercase title}} shouldn't be converted to {{DISPLAYTITLE:...}} if the language tags are at the start of the title (right after the namespace), in fact the real title could be directly converted to the correct case.
  • A Template:Local title or similar could be created and put on every translation to prettify the localized titles through mw:Help:Magic words#Page names (would require setting $wgRestrictDisplayTitle to false).
    • For example if the titles were of the form Lang:Zh-CN/Local title/Subpage the template could be {{DISPLAYTITLE:{{lcfirst:{{PAGENAME}}}}}} to display "zh-CN/Local title/Subpage".
    • If we wanted to keep the current format, the titles could be of the form Lang:Local title/Subpage (简体中文) or Lang:Local title (简体中文)/Subpage (see also Help talk:Style#Localized subpages), and the template could be {{DISPLAYTITLE:{{PAGENAME}}}} to display "Local title/Subpage (简体中文)" or "Local title (简体中文)/Subpage". This template would require explicitly making the first letter of the title lowercase when necessary, like in the English page.
    • Quite cool and flexible, if the titles were of the form Lang:Local title/Subpage/zh-CN we could play with the tag through {{SUBPAGENAME}} and put it wherever we want (and change it in the future); for example the template could be {{DISPLAYTITLE:{{BASEPAGENAME}} [{{SUBPAGENAME}}]}} to display "Local title/Subpage [zh-CN]", or {{DISPLAYTITLE:[{{SUBPAGENAME}}] {{BASEPAGENAME}}}} to display "[zh-CN] Local title/Subpage". This template would require explicitly making the first letter of the title lowercase when necessary, like in the English page. Also, there won't be the advantage of having the pages grouped by language in article lists.
Also note that {{DISPLAYTITLE}} properly affects the HTML page title, so that the pretty format is displayed in browser tab, window title... and web search engine results!
-- Kynikos (talk) 13:50, 5 July 2014 (UTC) (Last edit: 03:31, 27 June 2015 (UTC))

Back-end changes

This reform would require two changes to the back-end: creating the new namespace and updating the local interlanguage links. The latter is trivial, but we have to make a final decision on the new namespace name, so let's put it to vote in #Poll. Only one vote per user, you can change your vote as many times as you want before the poll is closed. You can add more options if you want. Please add comments here, not under the poll. — Kynikos (talk) 01:00, 14 March 2015 (UTC)

In the discussion above, most of the considerations about DISPLAYTITLE are false, unless $wgRestrictDisplayTitle is set to false. -- Lahwaacz (talk) 08:08, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
I'd go with the "L10n" prefix, as it makes clear that translated pages are adaptations of their respective English versions [2] and must be kept as true to the original as possible. Both "I18n" and "L10n" are also common in Arch packaging [3] [4]. If we go with L10n, we should likely rename this page as well.
That said, as we're the only ones likely to vote here, we should agree on a name instead of all voting on a different one. :P
-- Alad (talk) 11:46, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
I think what also matters is how readable localized titles would look on web engine search results, e.g. in https://www.google.com/search?q=archwiki+main+page , and this probably also depends on the language prefix/suffix format we choose to enforce. If we decide for the "NS:CODE/Title" format, probably "Lang" is indeed a better-looking solution; on the other hand, if we kept language suffixes, e.g. "NS:Title (Language)", "Lang" wouldn't introduce the language code anymore, and it wouldn't look as good, so in that case "L10n" may be the best option. For this reason I think we should open a poll for the language format first. — Kynikos (talk) 04:03, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
Regarding #Poll (syntax), what does the "Local title" part mean? Shouldn't it be just "Title", i.e. the title of the relevant English page as it is now? -- Lahwaacz (talk) 12:57, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
Sorry, I blindly copy-pasted the examples above, I've fixed the poll. Allowing localized titles would be something that I wanted to discuss later on. — Kynikos (talk) 03:39, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

MediaWiki has a new related feature since 1.24, see "Manually changing page language" in mw:Manual:Language#Page_content_language. It is not enabled by default, but since we don't use the Translate extension, it would come in handy for us. -- Lahwaacz (talk) 13:29, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

I've just tested it in my local testing wiki, but I don't see much use for that feature honestly... Or maybe I haven't understood what it should do? (Not much according to the "What does it define?" section in mw:Manual:Language#Page_content_language) Also, the language doesn't seem to be set automatically based on the title, but it should be set with periodic bot runs (with an ad-hoc script). — Kynikos (talk) 13:46, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
I thought that it would produce better search results when using a search engine like Google, but it appears that the language is already recognized correctly. Anyway, fixing the lang attribute of the html tag manually "just because" is probably not worth the effort. -- Lahwaacz (talk) 14:23, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
I'm not surprised that Google detects the language of a page without relying on html attributes, anyway I didn't make the connection between your observation and my concerns about search engine results, sorry for the misunderstanding :)
But does the lang attribute really change? I've just checked in my local wiki and it stays "en" no matter what language I set for my test page... O_o
Kynikos (talk) 11:01, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

Poll (namespace)

Lang

  • Lahwaacz (talk) 08:14, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
  • [vote here with ~~~~]

Int

  • [vote here with ~~~~]

Local

  • [vote here with ~~~~]

Loc

  • [vote here with ~~~~]

I18n

  • [vote here with ~~~~]

L10n

  • [vote here with ~~~~]

Poll (syntax)

Lang:ES/Title/Subpage

Lang:ZH-CN/Title/Subpage

  • Fengchao (talk) 12:45, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
  • [vote here with ~~~~]


L10n:Title/Subpage (Español)

L10n:Title/Subpage (简体中文)

  • [vote here with ~~~~]


L10n:Title/Subpage/Español

L10n:Title/Subpage/简体中文

[+ set $wgRestrictDisplayTitle to false and prettify with DISPLAYTITLE]

  • [vote here with ~~~~]

Moving Japanese pages to new external wiki

I made new Japanese community website ([5]) and its wiki ([6]). Migraiton of wiki pages has been already completed, so everything should work. Please change "ja" interlanguage link to point to https://archlinuxjp.kusakata.com/wiki/$1, and I'm going to fix ja links of each page whose title was translated into Japanese in new wiki. For original Japanese pages, I'd like to put #redirect[[ja:<page title>]] in their contents rather than to delete them completely, because if these pages are linked by external websites they'll dead. Although, if that leaving redirects should be a nuisance, I will agree to remove all.

Japanese website's url is provisional, I want to move to the appropriate address (archlinux.jp) but the domain currently acquired by someone. She or he seems to be satisfied with just getting this domain before starting to make the contents, therefore I instead started to. I'll wait until the domain be expired and acquirable or the present holder contact me (He/She might notice due to interlanguage links changing). When I find neither come (at the date of next expiration), I think to get and use other domain looking good (but `archlinux.jp` is the best I guess). -- Kusakata (talk) 07:56, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

Hi! That's great! Your contributions in Japanese wiki are very impressive :D.
I think archlinux.org.jp is also very appropriate, and it seems it's free now. Maybe you would try to obtain it now? Current owner of archlinux.jp may don't want to share with your intentions and anyway it will expire only at summer.. =\ — blackx (talk|contribs) 09:39, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
Thank you for your suggestion, but ".or.jp" domains can be obtained only by the judicial person authorized by the government (source). It takes a lot of time and money to obtain approval from a government office. Using ".jp" second-level-domains like ".or.jp" is not easy. -- Kusakata (talk) 10:57, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
Great job Kusakata! In order to update the interwiki links we need to patch the database directly, so it's not an immediate thing because we have to go through a Developer, but of course I'll take care of this on high priority, considering the huge effort you've put into this :)
About the interwiki redirects, they've always been forbidden by Help:Style#Redirect pages, but I also understand the need not to break existing external links: perhaps we could keep the redirects for a while, then start progressively deleting them making sure to add the link to the .jp page in the deletion message.
Finally, can I ask you what method you've used to export/import all the Japanese articles? For example have you used the API with a bot, or Special:Export/Special:Import, or manually copy/pasted the content, or...
Kynikos (talk) 14:34, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
I'm happy you said so. Your solution about the redirects sounds reasonable to me. To answer your question, I've used the second method, roughly speaking. I had all Japanese pages exported, and I made necessary changes to their titles and categories (if appropriate, I translated them into Japanese), internal links (stripping (日本語) from [[some page (日本語)]]) with exported .xml files. After that, these .xml files were imported into new Japanese wiki. To reduce processing load, I divided into several times (category by category). However, some pages I initially set about were manually copied. -- Kusakata (talk) 03:24, 21 February 2015 (UTC)
Update: patch sent to Pierre by email.
Thanks for explaining, we've never tried a large-sized migration with the export/import tools, and it's good to see that it can work. Have you exported only the last revisions or the whole histories of the pages?
Kynikos (talk) 15:24, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
Very glad, very thankful. To include all histories of pages is undoubtedly better, thus I tried to. Although exporting went fine, importing went wrong. Somehow it's too severe for my server. I was able to export/import a page with its history, but I couldn't do several pages at once. Finally, I've exported only the last revisions. -- Kusakata (talk) 17:42, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
Special:Import is affected by PHP's limit on maximum file size for uploads, see e.g. [7]. Other import methods are described here, depending on how much control you have over the server there may be better solutions than Special:Import. -- Lahwaacz (talk) 17:51, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
I see. It appears that PHP's timeout rather than uploading limit is a problem. Despite how many revisions are included within pages, the more pages I attempt to import at a time, the longer time it takes. Other methods might helpful but I shall not do it now. Actually, the whole histories of cardinal pages were imported. -- Kusakata (talk) 08:07, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
Japanese links changed! I'm fixing/adding missing ja links, but I cannot edit the protected pages. Please edit following pages, instead of me:
Thank you. -- Kusakata (talk) 13:10, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
All done.
Let's keep this open until the interlanguage redirects will have been deleted according to Help:Style: they can be found with Help:I18n#Finding_articles_with_specific_interlanguage_links.
...or we can change the style rule and allow interlanguage (but not generic interwiki) redirects, what do the other admins think? Interwiki redirects were banned because it was deemed confusing to be thrown to another website, also in general without editing rights, after clicking on an internal link. Do we want to make an exception for interlanguage redirects? I'm a bit undecided at the moment...
Kynikos (talk) 04:33, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
Japanese templates (and perhaps also categories?) can be deleted right away. Redirects for content pages and their talk pages can stay as long as necessary, I wouldn't mind if that's forever. As for the exception from the rule, interlanguage redirects should stay under control. The state could be checked once in a while with a script (not written yet, should be simple). How about "Interlanguage redirects can be set up only with consent of the Maintenance Team"? -- Lahwaacz (talk) 20:45, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
+1 for everything (templates/categories, exception and script), I've updated Help:Style and Help:i18n accordingly. — Kynikos (talk) 03:02, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
I've just finished deleting all the categories. — Kynikos (talk) 02:32, 5 April 2015 (UTC)
The day before yesterday, archlinux.jp domain should have expired. However, the holder of this domain has extended the term and seems not to dispose of it. I can't wait any longer. As planned, I've got another domain: archlinuxjp.org. Now the access to "archlinuxjp.kusakata.com" is redirected to "archlinuxjp.org". And, I also changed our MediaWiki's URL structure to the same as "wiki.archlinux.org", which means https://archlinuxjp.kusakata.com/wiki/$1 became https://wiki.archlinuxjp.org/index.php/$1. Please update Japanese interlanguage links again, and no further changes about Japanese website's addresses might come. -- Kusakata (talk) 16:29, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
Thank you Kusakata, I've opened a pull request for that[8]. — Kynikos (talk) 14:02, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
I confirmed interlanguage ja links updated. Thank you. -- Kusakata (talk) 17:46, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

Move/Merge articles to external wikis

[Moved from ArchWiki:Requests#Move/Merge articles to external wikisKynikos (talk) 13:08, 20 March 2015 (UTC)]

Although Finnish and Serbian have their own wikis, we're still hosting some articles in those languages:

Some users of those wikis should probably be contacted in order to complete the move/merge, replacing those articles with interlanguage links at least on the respective English pages.

-- Kynikos (talk) 16:34, 10 May 2012 (UTC) (Last edit: 03:04, 22 September 2013 (UTC))

Many language wikis moved out and died. Lots of effort is wasted in wiki page move/import.
So I now have a strong feeling that we should host all localization pages instead of pushing them out.
--Fengchao (talk) 13:45, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
Well, confirming what I wrote in ArchWiki talk:Administrators#Cite extension (very last post, the rest is unrelated), I agree with you. If we want to start implementing Help_talk:I18n#Language_namespace.28s.29_in_place_of_suffixes.3F, we need to have the new namespace configured and pushed to the repo: I opened FS#35545 a long time ago to facilitate this, and incidentally I'm currently trying to communicate with the devs for some back-end patches, hopefully making it to have that implemented too.
Kynikos (talk) 14:46, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
Great. I like namespace :) This topic could be closed. --Fengchao (talk) 12:42, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
I'm reopening it here as a reminder until we really implement the namespace thing. — Kynikos (talk) 13:08, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

Finnish and Swedish wikis

The Finnish and Swedish external wikis seem to be down for quite some time. -- Lahwaacz (talk) 12:52, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

Both still down. Would be good to remove them from quick links.
I clicked main page for all languages. The Iranian 404s, but resolves with a different link. Others are ok.
--Indigo (talk) 19:30, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
Now archlinux.fi redirects to an ad site. I suggest changing fi back to wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/xxx_(Suomi) and removing sv. Iranian wiki is fixed. — Arza (talk) 15:15, 11 April 2017 (UTC)
Thank you for reporting it. — Kynikos (talk) 10:04, 12 April 2017 (UTC)

Turkish wiki unaccessible

When visiting [9] and [10], I get the following error:

MediaWiki does not function when magic quotes are enabled. Please see the PHP Manual for help on how to disable magic quotes.

-- Alad (talk) 08:03, 20 September 2015 (UTC)

That appears to be resolved. Closing. --Indigo (talk) 19:34, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
Currently down and redirects to a forum. — Arza (talk) 15:17, 11 April 2017 (UTC)
Thank you for reporting it. — Kynikos (talk) 10:04, 12 April 2017 (UTC)

Status update

I am sorry if this is not related here. I would like to know that has any conclusion been made about changing the back-end of all I18n articles? More importantly, is translation work still encouraged here in ArchWiki? --NonerKao (talk) 13:16, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

  1. No, for the moment there's no change to internationalization rules, however any change would probably be carried out with bots, so you can keep translating normally. This also means that you're still in time to express your opinion, if you have something to add.
  2. Yes, translation work is fully supported: in the past the policy was to encourage the establishment of external wikis for non-English articles, but more recently this view seems to have changed, and for example I tend to support local translations because translators tend to bring additional improvements to English articles too, although an official stand on this issue has never been made. Note however that local translations have the disadvantage that many parts of the wiki interface aren't affected by the language preferences set by each user, so they will always be displayed in English.
Kynikos (talk) 04:05, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
OK, let me share some rough thoughts here. As a tranditional Chinese(TC below) user, actually I feel that current I18n policy is quite good and acceptable, because some of the TC users has made some conventions and newcomers like me can easily follow them. I can maintaining, translating as many pages as I want.
However I also acknowledge that it might be a totally different story for administrators for management purpose. So, I am kind of neutral about future changes on this issue. Everything is fine now, but if the current state really bothers managers, matainers and normal archers, then I would vote for change as well.
Maybe the long silence of this discussion indicates that this issue does not, in fact, bother many people. NonerKao (talk) 04:43, 22 October 2015 (UTC)