Help talk:I18n

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Revision as of 15:27, 8 April 2012 by Xskydevilx (Talk | contribs) (Croatian/Hrvatski missing)

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Regarding ArchWiki internationalization: There have been a number of discussions about this over the years: 2006, 2007, 2009, and 2010. In short, there are a number of potential solutions; none are perfect. Currently, the interwiki implementation is considered "best" because it provides non-English users with a fully-localized experience and isolates each language. Other "good" solutions include the creation of language-specific namespaces or migration to a different wiki which provides "better" internationalization options -- but require more effort to implement. -- pointone 16:07, 21 October 2011 (EDT)

Officializing ArchWiki Translation Teams?

The Italian and Spanish translation teams have just decided to standardize the titles of their project pages: ArchWiki Translation Team (Italiano) and ArchWiki Translation Team (Español). Is it possible to link those pages here thus somewhat officializing the translation projects, maybe involving other languages too in the future? This could also help finding other people interested in joining the teams. -- Kynikos 09:24, 25 April 2011 (EDT)

I support your idea. I've been meaning to write a translation guidelines section (recording the translation date on an article's talk page, something about avoiding starting translations unless planning to complete it, etc.) This is also where I'd like mention the translation projects. I'd appreciate your input. -- pointone 15:04, 29 April 2011 (EDT)
Uhm I really don't want to dishearten you about this, but I think that translation-specific guidelines should be left to each language translation team: for example the Italian community uses tables to sum up translation dates, maintainers, notes and so on, and I don't think that writing to avoid starting translations unless planning to complete them would really change users' behaviour... It's already hard to make people follow generic style guidelines, which, by the way, should really be written down as we were discussing a bit of time ago. I want to make me understood: a style guideline would not make sure that everybody respects it at all, but it would allow administrators and occasional correctors (like I am sometimes) to have a definite reference for making corrections to edits and articles in general. You could start a Style Guide page, and then users could add new rules over time (under your supervision), so you wouldn't have to do all the job. I also remind you that there was that discussion on the possibility of restyling the templates.
Anyway, about this discussion, you could add a "Translation Team" field in the table at the bottom, with a link to the relative translation team for each language which has one. Then you could add a subsection to Guidelines similar to this:
Translation teams
Some languages have started collaboration projects (see table below) to efficiently organize the translation of the articles. Please consider joining your language's Translation Team or at least informing it when you are starting translating an article.
(I know, I'm not very inspired tonight ihih) If I'll happen to think of other (maybe better) ways of highlighting the translation projects I'll suggest them here ;) -- Kynikos 19:28, 29 April 2011 (EDT)
IMHO the non-English wikis should be separate from the main one, as it is with French, German and Polish. You have your own forum already. -- Karol 05:03, 30 April 2011 (EDT)
That would be the ideal situation. Anyway at least the Italian translation project (I don't know about the other languages) is completely independent from archlinux.it, where as far as I know it was asked some time ago to implement a wiki, but for some reason it came to nothing. -- Kynikos 05:55, 30 April 2011 (EDT)

Related: ArchWiki Translation Day. Mention external wikis and Translation Teams there. -- Kynikos 05:25, 31 January 2012 (EST)

Jobinson

About Article Title


ID+title in l18n+(l18n in english) would be better than the present.

1、the ID is the same with the id of the english original article

2、title in locale language would be convenient and friendly for the people who is not familiar for english.

3、l18n in english will help the admin to learn which article hasn't been translated.

so, with the help of the new subject style , the admin would learn the translated subject of article and the locals would get the native subject for convinient, perfect!

The current i18n situation is not ideal, but this proposal seems needlessly complex. Please find our ongoing internationalization discussion at International Wikis (2010 edition). -- pointone 11:54, 24 February 2011 (EST)
The same / similar idea was presented here. -- Karol 18:17, 25 August 2011 (EDT)

Serbian

Clarification needed: there are currently articles tagged with Srpski (Serbian Latin) and others with Српски (Serbian Cyrillic). Are there objections to tagging Srpski articles with Српски instead? (For example: Main Page (Srpski) to Main Page (Српски)) Would this be confusing?

It is my understanding that most Serbians are literate in both scripts, and Cyrillic is considered the "official" script.

-- pointone 16:11, 17 January 2010 (EST)

Wordwrapping

I presume you are aware that the i18n box doesn't wrap the text at the moment? Looks nice otherwise :] totalwormage 03:18, 12 January 2010 (EST)

Please elaborate; this was done by design (if we're talking about the same thing). Individual entries will not wrap, but overall the box will span multiple lines. This results in a more consistent display across resolutions (try resizing your browser window and watch what happens).
i.e. a single entry is ": Language :"; thus we see:
 : Lang1 :: Lang2 :
 : Lang3 :
instead of:
 : Lang1 :: Lang2 ::
Lang3 :
-- pointone 09:24, 12 January 2010 (EST)
Sorry; it appears there was a problem, but not when viewing the page with the Opera browser. See Template talk:i18n.
-- pointone 19:59, 12 January 2010 (EST)

Hiding unexisting links

The template looks good, but not when the vast majority of translated articles don't exist. I've noticed that it has a very unpleasant effect on articles. Is it possible to hide the links when the targets haven't been created yet? Dres 15:05, 13 January 2010 (EST)

This requires the installation of the ParserFunctions extension, as far as I know. See http://bugs.archlinux.org/task/17580 for a related bug report (though I've been considering opening a separate request).
-- pointone 16:55, 13 January 2010 (EST)
I agree that it doesn't look great but it reminds users there is a translation work to do to improve the i18n. When I see redlinks, I feel like trying to make the page (even if too often I do not find time to do so) Bikepunk 06:31, 4 March 2010 (EST)

Bulgarian / Български missing

Hi, I found out that Bulgarian language is missing in the i18n template while there are pages in bulgarian (for example : Skype_(Български) ) Bikepunk 06:26, 4 March 2010 (EST)

thanks Pointoine for the fast add ;) Bikepunk 10:29, 4 March 2010 (EST)

Polish wiki

Polish wiki under adress: http://wiki.archlinux.pl is down for a long time.

Probably links to this wiki should be removed and polish translation should be added to i18n.

See also ArchWiki:Requests#Polish_wiki. -- Kynikos 11:41, 19 February 2012 (EST)

Localized templates, categories and special pages?

As Archlinux Turkiye team we will begin translations on wiki soon. It is very hard to organize Turkish pages with currenti i18n policy. Non-english speakers are always confused and told us that they lost themselves while trying to reach knowledge here. Currently we decided to use official wiki instead of create a localized wiki on our server. Lack of manpower :). We need to ease things in current i18n policy but need advice and help. So;

  • Should we create localized templates? Instead of "Warning (Türkçe)" ==> "Uyarı" for example? -- tarakbumba 10:03, 28 March 2012 (EDT)
Localized template names should only be redirects to the standard title, so in your example "Uyarı" should be a simple redirect to "Warning (Türkçe)" -- Kynikos 06:16, 29 March 2012 (EDT)
  • Should we create localized categories? If we can, it will help Turkish users to find what they seek to. We can group certain translated articles into their respective localized categories. -- tarakbumba 10:03, 28 March 2012 (EDT)
I understand the need for localized categories, but currently they're not allowed, although I'm perfectly aware that there are many. You've already noticed that internationalization is still quite messy, please stick to the current rules in any case until they change if they ever do, otherwise we're messing things up even more :) You must understand that the MediaWiki engine is not made for hosting multilanguage projects, even Wikipedia uses different databases for the various languages, so there's always the need for workarounds for handling translations: here we're currently using the "language suffix" method, which means that all pages should be named with the English title followed by the proper language suffix, and then they should use Template:i18n for enabling navigation between translations. This must be done for ease of maintenance, because the Turkish team is not the only one lacking manpower... :D Other i18n methods have been discussed in the past and also the present, just see the note at the top of this very page, and I'm also aware of the forum thread you started, but these changes require lots of time and efforts, and we're currently unable to manage them. -- Kynikos 06:16, 29 March 2012 (EDT)
  • Should we create localized Special pages? As this wiki talk mentioned some templates automatically add articles to special pages. We need to gather i.e. articles those marked to be translated into Turkish and will use localized translateme template to achive this. Is that right way to do this? -- tarakbumba 10:03, 28 March 2012 (EDT)
Yes, I warmly suggest you to use ArchWiki Translation Team (Türkçe) for organizing translations, you can also take example from what other languages are already doing. -- Kynikos 06:16, 29 March 2012 (EDT)

MediaWiki translation extension

Speaking of multi language support for MediaWiki. It does have an extension to support translation. See: http://translatewiki.net/wiki/Main_Page. Here is forum proposal [1] and bug FS#26638. As a user of KDE userbase and techbase, I think this extension is exactly what Arch wiki need. But again, lack of man power to do it.

Exactly, time's not ripe for talking about this. Please for now let's use the suffix method as consistently as possible: if one day another method will be enforced, it will be much easier to handle at least some parts of the transition automatically with bots or other scripts. -- Kynikos 06:01, 30 March 2012 (EDT)

Croatian/Hrvatski missing

Hi there, I just noticed that Croatian (hrvatski) is missing from the list, even though there are pages translated

and is being currently translated as well (such as the main page, the beginners' guide, etc.). —xskydevilx 10:40, 31 March 2012 (EDT)

As a general rule of thumb, we wait for at least 3 complete translations before adding new i18n entries. The initial Croatian effort began in September but was quickly abandoned. Currently, only the Main Page translation appears complete. -- pointone 12:35, 31 March 2012 (EDT)
Actually, three pages have been fully translated: Arch Linux (Hrvatski), DeveloperWiki:2011.08.19_(Hrvatski), and Main Page (Hrvatski). —xskydevilx 09:59, 4 April 2012 (EDT)
Can you explain why, among hundreds of articles, you decided to translate DeveloperWiki:2011.08.19? How exactly will it be useful for Croatian users? Usually DeveloperWiki articles are not translated because they are useful only for Arch developers, who communicate in English.
How are you planning to continue translating articles to Croatian? For example you could translate the Beginners' Guide at least a bit more, or other basic articles like The Arch Way :)
-- Kynikos 13:27, 6 April 2012 (EDT)
Because it was the easiest to fill your norm for the 3 translated articles. I'll help out as much as I can. It's just that people don't realise that it's being translated in Croatian because there is no link at the top to tell them. Why not add it? —11:27, 8 April 2012 (EDT)

Turkish Wiki Pages moving to Archlinux Turkiye site (archtr.org)

Thanks to Kynikos, who reminded me to make an announcement here. Due to localization diffuculties (by wiki rules) about page titles, categories and templates Archlinux Turkiye team decided to host Turkish documentation on their site. Migraiton has begun a couple of days ago and when migration process completed we will ask for deletion of Turkish wiki pages. Hope, we satisfy turkish users requests. A template named "mark-to-delete" has been created as a reminder for migrated articles.