Difference between revisions of "Help talk:Style/Article summary templates"

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[[Writing Article Overviews|Article summary templates]] provide a place to sum up the content of the aricle. The problem is that, in my opinion, this conflicts with the text written in the first part of the articles, before the first heading, which is kind of used for the same purpose. You can see this even in the page I've linked at the beginning of the paragraph, and in [[Writing_Article_Introductions]].
#redirect [[Help talk:Style]]
I suggest that the summary should only be written as normal text before the first heading, and that Article summary templates should be used only to provide additional schematic introductory informations, like links to related articles (also note that this could conflict with "See also" sections), using the Overview templates, listing packages to download (like in [[Trinity]]) and so on. [[Writing Article Overviews]] and [[Writing Article Introductions]] should be edited in accordance, or maybe merged with this very article? (They actually talk about style) -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] 12:12, 3 May 2011 (EDT)
:I never liked those summary templates and I prefer to have all the related links either in the article itself or at the bottom in the "See also" section. The introduction should have info like ''This is an article about foo. If you're looking for foo2, go to <u>this</u> page and if you want bar, go to <u>this</u> page.'' Examples [[GNOME]] v. [[GNOME 3]], [[Virtualbox]] v. [[Arch Linux VirtualBox Guest]]. -- [[User:Karol|Karol]] 13:24, 3 May 2011 (EDT)
::Would you definitively deprecate Article summary templates? It would KISS things up, I could agree.
::Let's try to be concrete, otherwise discussions like this can last for eternity: I'm listing all the possible uses for Article summary (add more if you can think of others), then evaluate each briefly to see if it can be put back in the "normal flow" of the article:
::*Article summary:
:::it could easily (and I think should) be always substituted by the text before the first heading (which appears before the ToC);
::*Overview template:
:::more hardly replaceable, unless we just list its links in the See also section and get rid of the rest of the description; I don't like Overview templates very much, they could also be included in the normal summary at the beginning of the article;
::*Related articles and other links (Wikipedia articles, Series, Changelogs...):
:::easily mergeable with the See also section, anyway I don't know if I would like the opposite more;
::*Legal info:
:::This is rarely used ([[Fonts]] is the only occurrence I've found with a brief random search); it could be easily integrated in the normal flow;
::*List of packages:
:::Also rarely used ([[Trinity]] is the only occurrence I can think of at the moment); it could be integrated in the normal flow, though a long list would not look as good.
::In the end, I would start removing the conflict for the summary itself, and then take care of the rest, also because a lot of articles make use of these templates in various ways.
::As always the last word will come from the administrators. -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] 17:54, 3 May 2011 (EDT)
:::In my mind, the ''introduction'' should be used to describe the topic of the article whereas the ''summary'' should be used to describe the structure and scope of the article. E.g. Introduction: X is an application that turns your computer into a killer robot. Summary: This article covers installation and configuration of X. A slight distinction, I will admit. (Analogy: abstract versus introduction in research articles).
:::I created the overview templates as a way to add context to the ''related'' articles. Yes, article X is related to Y, but in what way? I also prefer seeing related links at the beginning rather than the end of articles.
:::-- [[User:Pointone|pointone]] 23:03, 4 May 2011 (EDT)
::::Well I agree about the links: as we are trying to standardize the style you could consider approving to move all links from See also and External links sections to the Summary box.
::::About introduction and summary, I still think the difference is really too subtle to be noticed and applied in all the articles without having to puzzle over what to write where. We should think well if it really gives an advantage to have the two kind of text separated; also IMHO the purpose of the summary, as you have descripted it, is almost completely fulfilled by the Table of Contents. -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] 10:36, 5 May 2011 (EDT)
::I’m not really a fan of these floating templates either. I tend to start reading a page sequentially, at least until I get a feel for what the page is about and decide if I am reading the right page or not. I ignore these sort of floating boxes because they don’t visually have a place in the main text sequence. I often just assume that if they contained important information, that information would be present in the main body as well. Perhaps I would take more notice of these templates if they were on the left (since I read from left to right), but on the other hand perhaps that would make me even more annoyed at the pages that use those templates :P.
:: How do the templates help add context to related articles? [[User:Vadmium|Vadmium]] 06:13, 1 August 2011 (EDT).
:::I was referring to the so-called ''overview'' templates such as [[Template:Package management overview]]. I believe this adds context to related articles rather than simply saying "See also: [[pacman]], [[Arch Build System]], [[PKGBUILD]], etc." However, the overviews can be moved to respective category pages, as touched upon in [[#A crazy idea (about Summary templates, Overview templates and categories)]]. -- [[User:Pointone|pointone]] 14:18, 22 September 2011 (EDT)
Is the Article Summary to be optional or required (mandatory) on every article? And if it's optional, the choice is purely based on authors' preferences or do we suggest some guidelines? -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] 07:02, 17 September 2011 (EDT)
:I am neither for nor against the summary templates. The majority of users (here) are against them, so it would seem. -- [[User:Pointone|pointone]] 14:18, 22 September 2011 (EDT)
::Honestly, I would really like to deprecate every summary template except for the overviews, and I would finally implement [[#A crazy idea (about Summary templates, Overview templates and categories)]]: I read it again, and my own words "This way every category would have a brief description, Overview templates would become unnecessary (merged with category pages), all (categorized) articles would have an almost automatic overview, and people would be more willing to categorize pages well" have convinced me again of the advantages of such a system. -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] 17:32, 22 September 2011 (EDT)
:::As a start, I suggest we move the existing overviews to their respective category pages -- I support this part of your idea. However, as for including category overviews in the article summary, what happens if a page belongs to multiple categories? -- [[User:Pointone|pointone]] 18:21, 10 October 2011 (EDT)
::::Yeah I thought of that case, the article would just get multiple stacked overviews (I think it would be desirable, after all, and overviews shouldn't be 500-word texts, just brief descriptions). If however one wants to avoid displaying the overview of some categories, he can still use the normal categorization syntax.
::::Are we moving the existing overviews in their cat pages even if we've not yet reached a decision about the whole change?
::::-- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] 19:02, 10 October 2011 (EDT)
:::::I like having the overviews in articles. The overview gives good information for wrapping your head around a new topic and having access to the most important related articles, and I often enjoy getting this info right after reading the intro. There isn't much of a place for overview-like material elsewhere in the article either, so I'd like if these stayed. Also, many of the most related links in the summary template can be incorporated into a good overview. [[User:Emiralle|Emiralle]] 13:17, 15 October 2011 (EDT)
::::::Don't worry, we're just discussing where to keep the source text of overviews, whether in templates or in proper categories, but in the articles the overviews will be displayed as always. -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] 13:21, 15 October 2011 (EDT)
:::::::Right. Well in that case I'm happy with them moving to category pages as well. Many categories don't have much (or any) descriptive writing so that would kill two birds with one stone. [[User:Emiralle|Emiralle]] 13:27, 15 October 2011 (EDT)
::::::::Ok, I'm trying this. -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] 15:04, 15 October 2011 (EDT)
:::::::::This part is implemented, the source texts of the 5 currently existing overview templates have been moved to relevant categories. The templates themselves however are still there.
:::::::::Related changes are [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Category:Security_%28English%29&diff=prev&oldid=166035], [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Template:Access_control_overview&diff=prev&oldid=166036], [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Category:Boot_loaders_%28English%29&diff=prev&oldid=166037], [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Template:Boot_process_overview&diff=prev&oldid=166038], [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Category:X_Server_%28English%29&diff=prev&oldid=166039], [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Template:Graphical_user_interface_overview&diff=prev&oldid=166040], [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Category%3ANetworking_%28English%29&action=historysubmit&diff=166042&oldid=146852], [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Template:Networking_overview&diff=prev&oldid=166043], [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Category:Package_management_%28English%29&diff=prev&oldid=166044], [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Template:Package_management_overview&diff=prev&oldid=166045]. -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] 15:43, 15 October 2011 (EDT)
==A crazy idea (about Summary templates, Overview templates and categories)==
'''[Brainstorming mode ON]'''I don't even know if this could be feasible at all, but what if we could instruct the Article summary template to "read" (with an internal inclusion like those in the [[Beginners' Guide]]?) a specific standard section in each Category page that the article belongs to? That standard section would contain a description of the category, and that could somewhat replace the Overview templates. (How hard it is to explain insane ideas, further clarifications could follow)'''[Brainstorming mode OFF]'''. -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] 12:43, 3 May 2011 (EDT)
This is an example: looking at the code, I have used [[Template:Graphical user interface overview]], but with this method its text would be in the includable section (Overview) of the Category, and would be included (automatically with some template hacking?) in the Summary template field:
<div style="margin-left:10%; width:80%;">
<div style="border:1px solid #666;">
<p style="font-size:20px; font-weight:bold;">Lorem Ipsum</p>
<div style="padding:5px; float:right; width:25%;">
<p style="text-align: center; padding:3px; background:#333; color:white; font-size:13px; font-weight:bold;">Category: Desktop environments</p>
<div style="text-align: left; padding: 3px">
<p><tt><nowiki>{{:Category:Desktop environments}}</nowiki></tt> (Would this work?)</p>
<p>{{Graphical user interface overview}}</p>
<p style="text-align: center; padding:2px; background:#333; color:white; font-size:13px; font-weight:bold;">
<div style="text-align: left; padding: 3px">
<p>[[#Lorem Ipsum|Link 1]]</p>
<p>[[#Lorem Ipsum|Link 2]]</p>
<p>[[#Lorem Ipsum|Link 3]]</p>
<p style="text-align: center; padding:2px; background:#333; color:white; font-size:13px; font-weight:bold;">
External links
<div style="text-align: left; padding: 3px">
<p>[[#Lorem Ipsum|Link 1]]</p>
<p>[[#Lorem Ipsum|Link 2]]</p>
<p>[[#Lorem Ipsum|Link 3]]</p>
{{Lorem Ipsum}}
{{Lorem Ipsum}}
{{Lorem Ipsum}}
{{Lorem Ipsum}}
{{Lorem Ipsum}}
{{Lorem Ipsum}}
{{Lorem Ipsum}}
{{Lorem Ipsum}}
{{Lorem Ipsum}}
{{Lorem Ipsum}}
{{Lorem Ipsum}}
{{Lorem Ipsum}}
{{Lorem Ipsum}}
{{Lorem Ipsum}}
<p style="margin:5px; border:1px solid #666;">Categories: Desktop environments</p>
<div style="border:1px solid #666; margin-top:20px;">
<p style="font-size:20px; font-weight:bold;">Category:Desktop environments</p>
<p style="font-size:16px; font-weight:bold;">Overview</p>
{{Graphical user interface overview}}
<p style="font-size:16px; font-weight:bold;">Subcategories</p>
This way every category would have a brief description, Overview templates would become unnecessary (merged with category pages), all (categorized) articles would have an almost automatic overview, and people would be more willing to categorize pages well. -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] 06:02, 5 May 2011 (EDT)
:Ok, this definitely works: see [[Template:Sandbox]], [[:Category:Sandbox]] and [[Sandbox]] for an example ('''Note that [[Template:Sandbox]] has been edited meanwhile, so the examples don't work anymore at the moment.''' -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] 08:22, 15 May 2011 (EDT)). My suggestion would be an ''Article summary category'' template, or just ''Category'' to be put among Article summary templates; note that it automatically adds the page to the category, so it doesn't even duplicate its name in the source.
:Template code:
<nowiki><includeonly>{{Article summary heading|Category: {{{1}}}}}</nowiki>
<nowiki>{{Article summary text|[[Category:{{{1}}}]]{{:Category:{{{1}}}}}}}</includeonly></nowiki>
<s><nowiki>[[Category:My category]]</nowiki></s>
&#123;&#123;Article summary start&#125;&#125;
&#123;&#123;Article summary text|bla bla bla&#125;&#125;
&#123;&#123;Category|My category&#125;&#125;
&#123;&#123;Article summary heading|Other heading&#125;&#125;
&#123;&#123;Article summary text|bla bla bla 2&#125;&#125;
&#123;&#123;Article summary end&#125;&#125;
:<tt><nowiki>[[Category:My category]]</nowiki></tt> is not needed at the top of the page. -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] 09:56, 5 May 2011 (EDT)
:Of course if there's some category text that needs to be prevented from displaying in the template, it should be enclosed in <tt><nowiki><noinclude></nowiki></tt> tags (see the source of [[:Category:Sandbox]] for an example). -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] 10:42, 5 May 2011 (EDT)
::My original plan with respect to overviews was to include them on their related category pages (category summaries). I, too, thought of something similar, but realized that many existing categories are too broad. Consider [[Template:Access control overview]], which includes pages under [[:Category:Security]]. I also envision an "Encryption overview" which would fall under [[:Category:Security]]. For this to work, we would need to split [[:Category:Security]] -- not necessarily a bad thing, but I believe the template system provides more flexibility. -- [[User:Pointone|pointone]] 20:41, 10 May 2011 (EDT)
:::All this idea was built on the assumption that if two articles need two different overviews, then they very likely belong to different categories (possibly in a parent-child relation) and vice versa: in your example there probably should be an Encryption category, child of Security. I still think that the flexibility given by the Overview template system has a (IMVHO too high) cost in terms of ease of use and maintenance, with respect to the category system, anyway as I said it was just brainstorming. -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] 08:58, 11 May 2011 (EDT)
==See also or Related in Article Summary?==
I think we'd better be coherent whether to keep links, references etc. either in a "See also" section at the bottom of the article, or in one (or more) boxes under the Article Summary at the top right of the article.
See also [[#Article summary templates]].
-- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] 15:15, 21 September 2011 (EDT)
:This is more a reminder than other, but I'm starting to like the idea of adding the rule to keep related ArchWiki articles in the Article Summary box only, and external links in See also sections only. Well, this way the "See also" default may even be changed (with bots, don't worry!) to a non-imperative, descriptive title like "Additional resources", "External links" or something like that. -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] 07:06, 14 December 2011 (EST)
:Also remember that many external links in summaries can be found with [[Special:WhatLinksHere/Template:Article_summary_link]]. -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] 07:41, 24 January 2012 (EST)
'''Advantages of links in See also:'''
*There is more space for link descriptions
*It is likely one will read or skim the article before actively looking for additional reading material.  This naturally leaves the reader at the end of the article.  It is convenient for the reader in this case if links are at the end of the article. [[User:James Eder|James Eder]] 00:29, 22 September 2011 (EDT)
*It ''seems'' more common (elsewhere) to have links at the end of articles (when they are not inline with the rest of the text).  Following common convention it may be better from a usability perspective. [[User:James Eder|James Eder]] 00:29, 22 September 2011 (EDT)
*:Especially for people used to Wikipedia, which uses the same wiki software. [[User:Vadmium|Vadmium]] 11:12, 26 October 2011 (EDT).
*I am not sure how much we care about this but it having the links at the end could be more friendly to small form factor screens and screen readers. [[User:James Eder|James Eder]] 00:29, 22 September 2011 (EDT)
*As a section, "See also" gets its own TOC entry granting easy access from near the top of the article. Alternatively one may press the END key.  [[User:James Eder|James Eder]] 00:29, 22 September 2011 (EDT)
*More formatting options here than in summary. [[User:Emiralle|Emiralle]] 13:12, 15 October 2011 (EDT)
*More inclined to put external, or less closely related stuff here. [[User:Emiralle|Emiralle]] 13:12, 15 October 2011 (EDT)
*''See also'' section would not be skipped if you start reading the main text sequentially from the top. [[User:Vadmium|Vadmium]].
*''[add more advantages...]''
'''Advantages of links in Article Summary:'''
*Immediately visible
*Beyond some minor editing inconvenience, is there any real disadvantage of having the most ''interesting'' links in both locations?  It could be advantageous for the reader to have some links in both locations. [[User:James Eder|James Eder]] 00:29, 22 September 2011 (EDT)
*I think putting very closely related links in the summary gives the topic more cohesion, and as James Eder said, they could be included at the bottom as well. [[User:Emiralle|Emiralle]] 13:12, 15 October 2011 (EDT)
*It would theoretically be more effective in preventing duplication of content within the wiki, as (unexperienced) editors would have a clearer view of the articles where related content could already exist (true especially with series (or "rings") of articles on the same subject). -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 02:46, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
*''[add more advantages...]''

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