Difference between revisions of "Help talk:Style/Package installation"

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{{ic|pacman -S package}} vs {{ic|pacman -Syu package}}: already started discussing in [[User talk:Kynikos#"pacman -S foo" vs "pacman -Syu foo"]] and [[User talk:pointone#"pacman -Syu package"]]. Probably a nice subject for a new thread in the forum? -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] 11:46, 3 May 2011 (EDT)
#REDIRECT [[Help talk:Style]]
:Agreed; this should be discussed with the community at large. -- [[User:Pointone|pointone]] 22:56, 4 May 2011 (EDT)
'''[myusualbrainstormingmode ON]'''I would even add a third opponent: treat official package installation similarly to AUR packages: just list the packages to be installed (possibly with [[Template:Package Official]]) and link to [[Pacman]] or some other article for details on how to install.'''[myusualbrainstormingmode OFF]''' -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] 05:23, 17 May 2011 (EDT)
Ah, and maybe rename [[Template:Package Official]] to [[Template:Package]] or just [[Template:Pkg]] for ease of use. -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] 05:32, 17 May 2011 (EDT)
:I agree! I don't think we should use the verbose "Install {{Pkg|pkgname}}: pacman -S pkgname" outside of the Beginners' Guide. "Install {{Pkg|pkgname}}." should be enough, and I don't think we need to link to [[pacman]] each time we do it, since archers learn how to install packages during the initial install. Explicit instructions are useful when it's not something completely obvious, like using --asdeps or -D. [[User:Thestinger|thestinger]] 05:48, 17 May 2011 (EDT)
::Well the link could be implicit, like in "[[pacman|Install]] {{Pkg|pkgname}}". -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] 06:03, 18 May 2011 (EDT)
:::I think we could have a template for that too. Something like <nowiki>{{install|pkgname}}</nowiki> which would render as: "Install the {{Pkg|pkgname}} package<sup>[[pacman|how?]]</sup>"  Bonus points if the template can accept a list of packages.  I think the "how?" is small enough to be ignored by the more experienced but friendly enough for the novice.  One could have a separate template for AUR packages which links to the AUR Wiki article instead. [[User:James Eder|James Eder]] 17:19, 3 June 2011 (EDT)
::::Is there a way to use templates and point to a specific package? [http://www.archlinux.org/packages/?sort=&q=kernel26&maintainer=&last_update=&flagged=&limit=50 This is not what I want], I want just kernel26. [http://www.archlinux.org/packages/?sort=&repo=Core&q=kernel26&maintainer=&last_update=&flagged=&limit=50 Selecting only core repo] makes it a bit better, but still not perfect. [http://www.archlinux.org/packages/?sort=&q=dwm&maintainer=&last_update=&flagged=&limit=50 This method can cause some confusion] so it would be nice to avoid it. -- [[User:Karol|Karol]] 18:06, 3 June 2011 (EDT)
:::::I don't know if there is a way but it seems in most cases the right package appears at the top of the search results at least.  On the other hand, most users probably are going to be using pacman to grab their package anyway.  In that case, linking to the web front end for the database might not be that useful anyway. [[User:James Eder|James Eder]] 19:24, 3 June 2011 (EDT)
::::::About the template, I have the same position as for the daemons: it would force to use always the same wording while there are cases which would require different, more natural ways of explaining the installation. For example what would you do with optional packages? Would you make a Package Optional template? And with lists of packages? As far as I know, templates don't support {{ic|for}} loops, so how would you print a list of packages with a single template?
::::::About Karol's question, I think that the main problem would be the difference between ''i686/x86_64'' and ''any'' packages: this would require 2 templates, unless we'd like to provide only one package in case it's a ''i686/x86_64'' type. Apart from that, each package has a well defined URI, so it would be easy to compose it providing as arguments the package name and the repository.
::::::Anyway, as stated by Pointone, all "this should be discussed with the community at large", e.g. in the forum I guess. -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] 10:20, 4 June 2011 (EDT)
Related: [[#AUR package installation]]
Let's sum up this discussion:
*<s>Package installation instructions should be given as "[[pacman|Install]] {{Pkg|some-package}}, available in the [reponame] repository". The alternative is a template for doing this.</s>
:I think linking to the package is sufficient. Official and unofficial (AUR) packages should be differentiated, however. I do not support the use of a template which would tend to restrict editors. -- [[User:Pointone|pointone]] 14:03, 22 September 2011 (EDT)
::I agree, except that I haven't understood if you support the link to [[pacman]] or not. At the moment this is implemented with the link. -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] 16:38, 22 September 2011 (EDT)
:::Yes, the link to [[pacman]] should be included. Closing. -- [[User:Pointone|pointone]] 18:13, 10 October 2011 (EDT)
*<s>Do we enforce also mentioning the repository? This will have to be maintained in case the package is moved somewhere else.</s>
:As mentioned above, official and unofficial packages should be differentiated. Maintaining repository information is unnecessary and troublesome; repository changes are not wholly uncommon. -- [[User:Pointone|pointone]] 14:03, 22 September 2011 (EDT)
::Implemented. -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] 17:16, 22 September 2011 (EDT)
:::I think we should make an exception for official repositories which are ''not'' enabled by default.  Currently this is only [multilib] on x86_64 machines and [*testing] repositories.  This is somewhat rare if we consider the relatively few (by the numbers) packages in [multilib] and the nature of testing repositories (packages do not stay long and could be broken).  However, mentioning a that a package is in multilib which is not enabled by default can avoid some confusion.  It would be a loss to not include such information, IMO. [[User:James Eder|James Eder]] 12:01, 23 September 2011 (EDT)
::::You certainly have a point there, do we keep a whitelist of allowed repos ([multilib] and [*testing]) or a blacklist of not-allowed ones ([core], [extra], [community])? I'm for the baclklist way. -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] 15:48, 23 September 2011 (EDT)
:::::A blacklist sounds simpler.  :) [[User:James Eder|James Eder]] 00:05, 24 September 2011 (EDT)
::::::Done. -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] 15:34, 24 September 2011 (EDT)
*<s>Move [[Template:Package Official]] to [[Template:Pkg]]?</s>
:I support this move. What would you suggest as a more succinct title for [[Template:Package AUR]]? [[Template:Pkg2]]? -- [[User:Pointone|pointone]] 14:03, 22 September 2011 (EDT)
::Uhm, I'd say [[Template:UPkg]] or [[Template:PkgU]] or [[Template:PkgAUR]] or [[Template:AURPkg]] or, why not, [[Template:AUR]]. -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] 17:16, 22 September 2011 (EDT)
:::Done! -- [[User:Pointone|pointone]] 18:13, 10 October 2011 (EDT)
::::Perfect, I've just created [[Template:Aur]] so we can let users use {{ic|<nowiki>{{Aur|package}}</nowiki>}} or even {{ic|<nowiki>{{aur|package}}</nowiki>}}. -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] 18:43, 10 October 2011 (EDT)
*Allow using direct links to packages to avoid ambiguities?
:Perhaps the package search API could include an "exact match" option as [[Template:Package AUR]] now uses? ([http://projects.archlinux.org/archweb.git/tree/packages/views.py#n226 Relevant code]). -- [[User:Pointone|pointone]] 14:03, 22 September 2011 (EDT)
::Definitely, the template for official packages is not meant to be a search tool, it should point to the right results as fast as possible, and the user inserting it is supposed to use the exact name of the package in the first place. -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] 17:16, 22 September 2011 (EDT)
::Ah, but this means we're not going to allow direct links? I'm in favour of forbidding them, provided that the "exact match" option works as desired. -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] 17:19, 22 September 2011 (EDT)
:::The trouble with direct links for packages in the official repositories is that you end up linking to either the 32-bit or 64-bit package which may not be appropriate for the reader.  It would be best if the template lead to search results which match an exact name (which should, in most cases, contain only two packages in the results). +1 for not directly linking to packages in official repositories if it can be avoided. [[User:James Eder|James Eder]] 12:22, 23 September 2011 (EDT)
::::What about e.g. {{Pkg|perl}},  {{Pkg|python}}, {{Pkg|ruby}}, {{Pkg|linux}}? I think we should use {{bc|# pacman -S ruby}}
::::-- [[User:Karol|Karol]] 13:32, 23 September 2011 (EDT)
:::::I'm not sure if I have understood correctly your reply: those packages would be included in sentences like "To get the latest version of Python 3, simply [[pacman|install]] the {{Pkg|python}} package." (reworded from [[Python]]): by clicking on {{Pkg|python}}, with the eaxct match option the user would be shown only 2 results, python for i686 and python for x86_64. I think that would be the desirable way. -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] 16:02, 23 September 2011 (EDT)
::::::I created {{Bug|26383}}. Please vote/comment. Otherwise, the next best solution would be to link directly to the packages.git trunk or PKGBUILD:
::::::* [http://projects.archlinux.org/svntogit/packages.git/tree/trunk?h=packages/gcc packages.git trunk]
::::::* [http://projects.archlinux.org/svntogit/packages.git/tree/trunk/PKGBUILD?h=packages/gcc PKGBUILD]
::::::-- [[User:Pointone|pointone]] 18:13, 10 October 2011 (EDT)
:::::::You have my vote :) But you should also be able to vote it yourself, right?
:::::::Yes, linking to git may work, but let's hope that the bug gets fixed! ^^ -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] 18:50, 10 October 2011 (EDT)
::::::::Ah, right. Um... I was just being bashful. {{ic|:$}} -- [[User:Pointone|pointone]] 18:55, 10 October 2011 (EDT)
::About AUR packages, see [[User talk:Det#Templates vs links]] and {{Bug|28839}}. -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] 05:09, 10 March 2012 (EST)
*<s>Create a template which composes a direct link when given repository name, architecture and package name as arguments?</s>
:Maintenance would be difficult -- repository changes are not wholly uncommon. -- [[User:Pointone|pointone]] 14:03, 22 September 2011 (EDT)
::Kk, discarded. -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] 17:16, 22 September 2011 (EDT)
-- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] 15:17, 21 September 2011 (EDT)

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