Difference between revisions of "MediaWiki talk:Sidebar"

From ArchWiki
Jump to: navigation, search
(Localization: re, close)
(Help link: rm closed discussion)
 
(19 intermediate revisions by 3 users not shown)
Line 1: Line 1:
==<s>Localization</s>==
+
== Link to NewPages? ==
I propose replacing {{ic|Table of Contents<nowiki>|</nowiki>Table of Contents}} with {{ic|Table of Contents<nowiki>|</nowiki>categories}} or {{ic|Table of Contents<nowiki>|</nowiki>toc}}, since "categories" and "toc" are system messages whose proper localized version will be shown in accordance to the language chosen in the user preferences for the rest of the interface. In English, "categories" shows "Categories", and "toc" shows "Contents".
+
  
I prefer "categories", are there other opinions? Unfortunately I don't think we have a message that displays "Table of Contents" in English, if somebody wants to help looking for better messages, the full list is in [[Special:AllMessages]].
+
What do you think about adding link to [[Special:NewPages|New pages]] just below [[Special:RecentChanges|Recent changes]]? -- [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 08:40, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
  
-- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 11:26, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
+
:Why not take inspiration from [[Wikipedia:MediaWiki:Sidebar]] and create our own "interaction" menu? Besides [[Special:NewPages]] we could move there [[Special:RecentChanges]], [[:Category:Help]], and add links to [[ArchWiki:Contributing]], [[ArchWiki:Reports]] and [[ArchWiki:Requests]]. -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 14:52, 25 February 2014 (UTC)
: There is actually a [[MediaWiki:Toc]]. Though its current message is just '''Content'''. -- [[User:Fengchao|Fengchao]] ([[User talk:Fengchao|talk]]) 04:54, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
+
:Just brainstorming here, but also a link like [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?namespace=0&invert=1&title=Special%3ARecentChanges Recent changes (alt)] could encourage participation in talk pages. -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 04:20, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
::Eheh I think you misunderstood my idea (maybe I didn't explain myself well enough):
+
 
::*currently the {{ic|Table of Contents<nowiki>|</nowiki>Table of Contents}} line makes the Sidebar display "Table of Contents" regardless of the chosen localization;
+
::I like the idea, however as you noted [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=MediaWiki_talk:Sidebar&oldid=253009 earlier], the anchor text should be a system message so that it has available translations. Is that still a requirement? We won't probably find a suitable message for all these links... -- [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 05:58, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
::*Both [[MediaWiki:Categories]] and [[MediaWiki:Toc]] already exist and are translated for every language;
+
 
::*If we replace {{ic|Table of Contents<nowiki>|</nowiki>Table of Contents}} with {{ic|Table of Contents<nowiki>|</nowiki>categories}} or {{ic|Table of Contents<nowiki>|</nowiki>toc}} the Sidebar will display a translated text for every language, instead of "Table of Contents": in English this text is either "Categories" or "Contents".
+
:::Of course you make a good point with translations. Actually that's never been a strict requirement, in that discussion it was more of a proposed improvement, since that link was the only untranslated one in the whole sidebar. Maybe if we force English on all the links in this new "interaction" menu it won't look bad at all even in non-English interfaces.
::My questions are: do you (whoever reads this) like the idea? If yes, which of the two messages would you prefer? (I prefer "Categories", other possible messages can be found in [[Special:AllMessages]]).
+
:::I've been bold and updated the sidebar, let's wait for reactions and opinions.
::-- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 13:11, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
+
:::-- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 10:14, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
::: I just miss the {{ic|toc}} part. Blame my eyes :)
+
 
::: I am not a native English speaker, so I do not know the difference with "Table of Contents" and "Contents". I checked two English books at hands, one book('''Linux Device Driver''') use "Table of Contents" and another one ('''FreeBSD operating system''') use just "Contents". So if the two phases are interchangable, the best solution in my mind is: Change [[MediaWiki:Toc]] to "Table of Contents" and use {{ic|Table of Contents<nowiki>|</nowiki>toc}}.
+
:::For the moment I've left the available translations to see if users of non-English interfaces like it or not. I also haven't added the [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?namespace=0&invert=1&title=Special%3ARecentChanges Recent changes (alt)] link because I'm waiting for an inspiration for a better name. -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 10:29, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
::: If we should not change [[MediaWiki:Toc]], then I second "Categories". For zh_CN translation, it is not as good as the translated "Table of Contents" but is much much better than untranslated English.
+
 
::: -- [[User:Fengchao|Fengchao]] ([[User talk:Fengchao|talk]]) 15:04, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
+
::::Well, it uses the inverted filter, so it could be either "Recent changes (inv)" or "Recent changes<sup>-1</sup>". You could even invert the word "main" as the only namespace not being matched, so "Minor changes" or "Subsidiary changes" are other alternatives. I would not invert "recent" though, "Ancient changes" looks too weird :) -- [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 22:33, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
::::I admit I'm still supporting [[MediaWiki:Categories]], in fact in my view the [[Table of Contents]] articles are more Category Trees than real ToCs (in fact a subsequent discussion could be renaming them as [[Category Tree]]). -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 15:39, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
+
 
::::: I am fine with [[MediaWiki:Categories]], it is much better than a untranslated text. So let us just do it. -- [[User:Fengchao|Fengchao]] ([[User talk:Fengchao|talk]]) 01:06, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
+
:::::What would you think of "Recent talks"? Would you find it too misleading? It's not only talks, but it would serve well the purpose of inviting people into discussions. -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 02:01, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
::::::Done, of course the new link will be visible only to logged-in users; not-logged-in users will be able to see the new link only in the articles that will be saved or purged from now on. Closing, reopen if it's not working as intended ^^ -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 15:32, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
+
 
 +
::::::I could probably live with that, though I would prefer something more accurate. Or just use "Recent talks etc."? -- [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 09:05, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:::::::There's also the problem that a too-long name would probably wrap (or overflow if we use non-breaking spaces), just test some of them with Firebug or similar: I'd like to limit the name to two words and use only letter characters also for visual consistency. "Minor changes" is as inaccurate as "Recent talks", i.e. not all those changes are "minor". I'm reconsidering your "Subsidiary changes" instead, after all "recent" can be understood by the similarity with "Recent changes".
 +
:::::::But there's another aspect to consider: would two different links to Special:RecentChanges confuse inexperienced users, and possibly have the opposite effect, i.e. discourage them from checking one of the two pages?
 +
:::::::Finally, I think adding the {{ic|1=hidemyself=1}} filter would be useful too, what's your opinion?
 +
:::::::-- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 10:26, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
::::::::You are right about the title length, definitely the shorter the better.
 +
::::::::I've got another idea, based on "Changes under the hood", which is obviously too long: "Background changes" or "Underlying changes" (pick the better wording). There are probably better alternatives, my language register is not very large.
 +
::::::::I have been thinking about "Recent talks", and it really starts making sense. It is the most simple, and the only drawback is not very important - the non-talk namespaces included in the filter are not changed every day, and if so, there is usually a discussion preceeding them.
 +
::::::::Adding an additional link, even similar to "Recent changes", can be only an improvement. I can't think of a situation when the users resort to checking only the new link and forgetting about "Recent changes", the changes from the Main namespace would be heavily missed. So either they adapt to checking both, or stay checking only "Recent changes".
 +
::::::::I would not add any additional options to the filter, especially {{ic|1=hidemyself=1}} could be problematic (e.g. some user could do some change, refresh the list, not see his own change and ...). IMO this option is useful only to very active users, which is a minority. (I thought that this option is configurable from preferences along with {{ic|hidebots}} etc., but it is not.)
 +
::::::::-- [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 16:06, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:::::::::Ouch, just tested "{Subsidiary|Background|Underlying} changes" and they all wrap on my browser... Using a non-breaking space doesn't really overflow at least on Firefox, but it doesn't feel safe either, it probably overlaps a padding or margin and seems too hackish to me. Maybe "Recent talks" is really the only viable solution, I've just implemented it (without {{ic|hidemyself}}), let's wait for feedbacks. -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 13:21, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
== Remove "Random page"? ==
 +
 
 +
While we are at it, is there some particular case when [[Special:Random]] is useful? Or is it in the menu just because it is used on Wikipedia, probably added by default and nobody removed it yet?
 +
 
 +
I find it useless because it does not stick to one language, though I think it sticks to the Main namespace (it is hard to verify this empirically). So even if we moved each language into its own namespace, it would probably work only for English.
 +
 
 +
-- [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 22:20, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:It does stick to the Main namespace. I happen to use it, e.g. when I want to test Wiki Monkey on random pages. I think it's also been used in the past to fix the style on random articles instead of using a page list. I'd keep it, maybe we can leave this discussion open to hear more opinions. -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 01:30, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 23:05, 2 April 2014

Link to NewPages?

What do you think about adding link to New pages just below Recent changes? -- Lahwaacz (talk) 08:40, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

Why not take inspiration from Wikipedia:MediaWiki:Sidebar and create our own "interaction" menu? Besides Special:NewPages we could move there Special:RecentChanges, Category:Help, and add links to ArchWiki:Contributing, ArchWiki:Reports and ArchWiki:Requests. -- Kynikos (talk) 14:52, 25 February 2014 (UTC)
Just brainstorming here, but also a link like Recent changes (alt) could encourage participation in talk pages. -- Kynikos (talk) 04:20, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
I like the idea, however as you noted earlier, the anchor text should be a system message so that it has available translations. Is that still a requirement? We won't probably find a suitable message for all these links... -- Lahwaacz (talk) 05:58, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
Of course you make a good point with translations. Actually that's never been a strict requirement, in that discussion it was more of a proposed improvement, since that link was the only untranslated one in the whole sidebar. Maybe if we force English on all the links in this new "interaction" menu it won't look bad at all even in non-English interfaces.
I've been bold and updated the sidebar, let's wait for reactions and opinions.
-- Kynikos (talk) 10:14, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
For the moment I've left the available translations to see if users of non-English interfaces like it or not. I also haven't added the Recent changes (alt) link because I'm waiting for an inspiration for a better name. -- Kynikos (talk) 10:29, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
Well, it uses the inverted filter, so it could be either "Recent changes (inv)" or "Recent changes-1". You could even invert the word "main" as the only namespace not being matched, so "Minor changes" or "Subsidiary changes" are other alternatives. I would not invert "recent" though, "Ancient changes" looks too weird :) -- Lahwaacz (talk) 22:33, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
What would you think of "Recent talks"? Would you find it too misleading? It's not only talks, but it would serve well the purpose of inviting people into discussions. -- Kynikos (talk) 02:01, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
I could probably live with that, though I would prefer something more accurate. Or just use "Recent talks etc."? -- Lahwaacz (talk) 09:05, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
There's also the problem that a too-long name would probably wrap (or overflow if we use non-breaking spaces), just test some of them with Firebug or similar: I'd like to limit the name to two words and use only letter characters also for visual consistency. "Minor changes" is as inaccurate as "Recent talks", i.e. not all those changes are "minor". I'm reconsidering your "Subsidiary changes" instead, after all "recent" can be understood by the similarity with "Recent changes".
But there's another aspect to consider: would two different links to Special:RecentChanges confuse inexperienced users, and possibly have the opposite effect, i.e. discourage them from checking one of the two pages?
Finally, I think adding the hidemyself=1 filter would be useful too, what's your opinion?
-- Kynikos (talk) 10:26, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
You are right about the title length, definitely the shorter the better.
I've got another idea, based on "Changes under the hood", which is obviously too long: "Background changes" or "Underlying changes" (pick the better wording). There are probably better alternatives, my language register is not very large.
I have been thinking about "Recent talks", and it really starts making sense. It is the most simple, and the only drawback is not very important - the non-talk namespaces included in the filter are not changed every day, and if so, there is usually a discussion preceeding them.
Adding an additional link, even similar to "Recent changes", can be only an improvement. I can't think of a situation when the users resort to checking only the new link and forgetting about "Recent changes", the changes from the Main namespace would be heavily missed. So either they adapt to checking both, or stay checking only "Recent changes".
I would not add any additional options to the filter, especially hidemyself=1 could be problematic (e.g. some user could do some change, refresh the list, not see his own change and ...). IMO this option is useful only to very active users, which is a minority. (I thought that this option is configurable from preferences along with hidebots etc., but it is not.)
-- Lahwaacz (talk) 16:06, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
Ouch, just tested "{Subsidiary|Background|Underlying} changes" and they all wrap on my browser... Using a non-breaking space doesn't really overflow at least on Firefox, but it doesn't feel safe either, it probably overlaps a padding or margin and seems too hackish to me. Maybe "Recent talks" is really the only viable solution, I've just implemented it (without hidemyself), let's wait for feedbacks. -- Kynikos (talk) 13:21, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

Remove "Random page"?

While we are at it, is there some particular case when Special:Random is useful? Or is it in the menu just because it is used on Wikipedia, probably added by default and nobody removed it yet?

I find it useless because it does not stick to one language, though I think it sticks to the Main namespace (it is hard to verify this empirically). So even if we moved each language into its own namespace, it would probably work only for English.

-- Lahwaacz (talk) 22:20, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

It does stick to the Main namespace. I happen to use it, e.g. when I want to test Wiki Monkey on random pages. I think it's also been used in the past to fix the style on random articles instead of using a page list. I'd keep it, maybe we can leave this discussion open to hear more opinions. -- Kynikos (talk) 01:30, 1 March 2014 (UTC)