Difference between revisions of "Talk:ATI"

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(EXA and Adobe Flash performance: packages too old.)
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== <s> Forking this article for proprietary </s>==
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== Questionable Statements ==
Cleaned up some info today and noticed this article is really getting unruly. I propose that we fork the proprietary portion to its own article, such as "ATI Catalyst"Considering that the fglrx is now absolutely unsupported by Arch Linux, it would help make this article much less daunting to newcomers.
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<s>"Radeons from HD 2xxx to HD 6xxx ... (for example, '''powersaving is still in a testing phase''')."
 
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I do believe this is now functional, from using my HD6770 with power_profile and the featureMatrix represented on X.orgAny objections to removal?</s> [[User:T1nk3r3r|T1nk3r3r]] ([[User talk:T1nk3r3r|talk]]) 18:22, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
--[[User:Thayer | Thayer]] Mon Jan  4 10:53:18 PST 2010
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: <s>Is there any offical release note /commit log about powersaving support exit testing phase ?</s> -- [[User:Fengchao|Fengchao]] ([[User talk:Fengchao|talk]]) 09:31, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
 
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:: <s>Excellent point.  I think I can investigate that later today. Although the table on X.org showed most features functional across the board. This may have happened months ago. </s> [[User:T1nk3r3r|T1nk3r3r]] ([[User talk:T1nk3r3r|talk]]) 19:03, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
:I wholly agree.
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::: <s>I don't have time to cherry-pick through the [http://cgit.freedesktop.org/xorg/driver/xf86-video-ati/ commit logs]. I skimmed through 2012. However, this [http://wiki.x.org/wiki/RadeonFeature#KMS_Power_Management_Options page] shows the options for powersaving, and the table clearly shows functions are complete for all but the oldest cardsOn the flip side, where is the reference ''proving'' the original statement?</s> [[User:T1nk3r3r|T1nk3r3r]] ([[User talk:T1nk3r3r|talk]]) 20:57, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
 
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::::<s> Then the testing phase statement could be removed. </s> --[[User:Fengchao|Fengchao]] ([[User talk:Fengchao|talk]]) 12:54, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
:-- [[User:Pointone|pointone]] 23:53, 13 February 2010 (EST)
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:-- [[User:piezoelectric|piezoelectric]] 20:58, 10 April 2010 (EDT)
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==<s> EXA and Adobe Flash performance </s>==
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I noticed that enabling
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<pre>Option "AccelMethod" "EXA"</pre>
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as mentioned under "Performance tuning" lead to significantly worse Flash performance. This was using extra/flashplugin 10.0.22.87-1, aur/firefox-beta 3.5rc2-1 and extra/xf86-video-ati 6.12.2-2. My card (ATI Radeon 9550) uses the RV350 chipset, hence it is a bit dated. 
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If this isn't just a local phenomena, perhaps it should be mentioned?
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----
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I don't know. I disabled EXA, and got even worse Flash performance, according to a flash benchmark test I found at Snails Animation [http://www.snailsanimation.com/benchmark08_play.php]. (flashplugin 10.0.32.18-1.1, firefox 3.5.3-1, xf86-video-ati 6.12.2-2.) Same card and chipset, though.  --[[User:Rataxes|Rataxes]] 16:38, 15 September 2009 (EDT)
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== <s> KMS notes </s>==
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KMS on r5xx not works with linux 2.6.31.3. only if libdrm, libgl, mesa, xf86-video-ati - all installed from git.
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KMS seems to be enabled by default on r5xx with latest packages from archShould all those messages about it being unsupported be removed? [[User:TheCycoONE|TheCycoONE]]
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If KMS is enabled, dri-driver (r600_dri.so) does not load. X switch to software rasterization (swrast_dri.so) if available. Using 2.6.34-zen1, xorg 1.8.1.902, mesa and xf86-video-ati from git master. approve plz. --[[User:ReMiND|ReMiND]] 05:47, 27 June 2010 (EDT)
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: Problem is gone after reading http://www.x.org/wiki/radeonBuildHowTo#Troubleshooting and including new radeon_ucode firmware R600_rlc.bin (provides with linux-firmware package) [[User:ReMiND|ReMiND]] 14:21, 10 July 2010 (EDT)
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== KMS -- do we have to do anything at all to enable it? ==
 
== KMS -- do we have to do anything at all to enable it? ==
 
The KMS sections says it's on by default, should we even have to put radeon in MODULES any longer? If not, the intro to that section should probably mention that "you can skip the rest of this section if 'dmesg|grep modesetting' shows 'radeon kernel modesetting enabled'.
 
The KMS sections says it's on by default, should we even have to put radeon in MODULES any longer? If not, the intro to that section should probably mention that "you can skip the rest of this section if 'dmesg|grep modesetting' shows 'radeon kernel modesetting enabled'.
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:: (rc.conf/MODULES are deprecated with systemd)  Thinking about it, I don't explicitly recall having to enable it for the default ARCH kernel.  The ''late start'' section may indeed be rendered redunant.  Can anyone confirm this on a fresh install? [[User:T1nk3r3r|T1nk3r3r]] ([[User talk:T1nk3r3r|talk]]) 18:45, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
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:: From [http://wiki.x.org/wiki/RadeonFeature#Linux_kernel_parameters this page], it is stated that the current behavior is to autodetect.  So as long as the module is available and the hardware is there, it will load without intervention.  It only remains to be stated when this started -- for now we can simply say: currently. Leave a link to xorg? [[User:T1nk3r3r|T1nk3r3r]] ([[User talk:T1nk3r3r|talk]]) 21:06, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
  
 
=== KMS Early ===
 
=== KMS Early ===
 
I don't know how others feel about this, but my preferred setup is to put <tt>options radeon modeset=1</tt> in <tt>modprobe.conf</tt> and then to include <tt>modprobe.con</tt> along with the <tt>radeon</tt> module in <tt>mkinitcpio.conf</tt>. This way KMS is enabled once for both early and late start. Also, in the event of problems, <tt>radeon.modeset=1</tt> can still be added as a kernel option to the bootloader. --[[User:piezoelectric|piezoelectric]]
 
I don't know how others feel about this, but my preferred setup is to put <tt>options radeon modeset=1</tt> in <tt>modprobe.conf</tt> and then to include <tt>modprobe.con</tt> along with the <tt>radeon</tt> module in <tt>mkinitcpio.conf</tt>. This way KMS is enabled once for both early and late start. Also, in the event of problems, <tt>radeon.modeset=1</tt> can still be added as a kernel option to the bootloader. --[[User:piezoelectric|piezoelectric]]
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:: The bigger question here is: How early is Early?  If I'm not mistaken: '''boot options''' come first, then '''initramfs''', then '''modprobe.conf''' once the final root filesystem is mounted.  If it is enabled at boot, any other toggles may be rendered pointless.  This may only be applicable if firmware needs to be compiled into the kernel (newer cards).  On the other hand, see parent section here. [[User:T1nk3r3r|T1nk3r3r]] ([[User talk:T1nk3r3r|talk]]) 18:45, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
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 +
== Enabling video acceleration ==
 +
 +
<tt>~/.bashrc</tt> is the wrong place for setting this environment variables. This file is not consulted when starting i.e. firefox from the gnome shell. As it is a hardware dependent setting that is reasonable for every user on this box, i created a file in /etc/profile.d/ to accomplish this.
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 +
Setting this variables makes a difference when using flashplayer for youtube videos. When set, flashplayer reports accelerated rendering enabled at home with my ati hd3200 onboard graphics and rendering is faster in full screen mode.
  
== Driver ati or radeon ==
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It works now no more worse than under windows.
  
I just did the tutorial installing:
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== Radeon vs. Catalyst ==
pacman -S xf86-video-ati libgl ati-dri
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I could only get it working by changing in xorg.conf:
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Driver "vesa"
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to:
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Driver "ati"
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and not:
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Driver "radeon"
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as the tutorial stated. I have no idea why/how, but maybe it'll help people reading it here.
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--[[User:Overwave|Overwave]] 16:02, 7 November 2010 (EST)
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;Catalyst
The same happened for me, thanks for your tip.
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The ATI and Catalyst pages state that Catalyst performs better for 3D. As most of you may have experienced, the Catalyst driver is clunky and very badly optimized for Linux. Gaming performance is usually worse than on Windows. Catalyst and Nvidia drivers do not uses Unix interfaces properly (Linux kernel and Xorg), a big part of it is just a bunch of hacks. See what [http://nouveau.freedesktop.org/wiki/FAQ#So_go_to_a_country_where_it.2BIBk-s_not_illegal_and_produce_specs.21 the nouveau folks think]. It's probably a matter of syncing development between different platforms, so adapting the driver as less as possible from Windows is probably more profitable. The lack of respect for interfaces has one major issue: the compatibility with Xorg and Kernels is extremely fragile. Besides, a lot of features or simply not reliable (or at least a real pain to setup) with these drivers, such as dual head / external output, custom kernels, hibernation...
  
== <s> radeon-initrd does not exist in AUR </s> ==
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It would be a great relief for the Unix communities to finally have a free, full-featured and top class 3D graphic driver.
  
Re: http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Ati#Early_KMS_start I think the radeon-initrd package has been removed since it's no longer needed, should the "tip" just say "add radeon to HOOKS" and not install radeon-initrd? --[[User:Unhammer|Unhammer]] 03:14, 23 August 2010 (EDT)
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;Radeon
: actually, I think the tip should probably just be removed... I tried adding radeon to HOOKS without having radeon-initrd, and got an error on making the image (I used to need radeon-initrd for 3d to work, now it seems to be enough to have the newest linux-firmware, no special HOOKS needed). --[[User:Unhammer|Unhammer]] 07:29, 23 August 2010 (EDT)
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AMD did a very good thing when they decided to release the specs of their cards. FOSS radeon driver is now lightyears beyond nouveau in term of OpenGL implementation. The FOSS radeon driver seems like the ideal future of Unix graphics to me.
::Yes, it should be removed.  Please do so. [[User:Rransom|Rransom]] 19:01, 24 August 2010 (EDT)
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== required virtual size does not fit available size ... ==
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Since version 9.0.* from late 2012 and January 2013, OpenGL implementation has moved several steps forward as you can see on the [http://www.x.org/wiki/RadeonFeature feature matrix]. In fact, I've tested several games (native or Wine) and radeon performs much better than catalyst most of the times.
I was getting this error when trying to setup two screens with different resolutions using 'gnome-display-properties' (which in turn uses xrandr) : required virtual size does not fit available size: requested=(3200, 1080), minimum=(320, 200), maximum=(1920, 1920)
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Removing 'nomodeset' from my kernel parameters fixed it.  Removing the 'nomodeset' paramter should be discussed somewhere. I don't know enough about what it actually does to do so intelligently. --[[User:Gdw2|Gdw2]] 13:52, 21 March 2011 (EDT)
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For performance and Unix-frendliness, I suggest we should encourage Unix users to choose radeon over catalyst. Too many people are held up in their switching-to-Unix because of the terrible, infamous catalyst, even if all they need is average 3D graphics.
  
:nomodeset disables [[KMS]], and you shouldn't be using it anymore. It's not there by default, so you probably read about adding it somewhere on the wiki (you could add a warning to there). [[User:Thestinger|thestinger]] 00:18, 22 March 2011 (EDT)
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Since this revolution is brand new, it requires support from the community. We also need concrete data that states the progress, the support and the performance of radeon compared to catalyst.
  
== On ATI X1600 (RV530 series) glxgears or any other 3D application or game show black windows ==
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I suggest we create a benchmark page for that. Should we create a new page? I'll begin it below for now, but we shall move it in the future.
There are three possible solutions:
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Try editing {{ic|/boot/grub/menu.lst}} and add {{ic|<nowiki>pci=nomsi</nowiki>}} at the end of your kernel line.
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--[[User:Ambrevar|Ambrevar]] ([[User talk:Ambrevar|talk]]) 12:07, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
  
Also if this doesn't work, you can try adding {{ic|noapic}} instead of {{ic|<nowiki>pci=nomsi</nowiki>}}.
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:: A benchmark page could be informative, especially for newcomers that are having a difficult time making up their minds.  AMD is actually shifting support from Catalyst to radeon drivers.  They had hired two bodies to work on the radeon driver.  But then I came across this: http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/AMD-dismisses-numerous-open-source-developers-1745131.html
 +
:: I just found this: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/02/05/amd_open_source_hd_8000_drivers/print.html
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:: Regardless, there has been a lot of headway in the last four years.  I recently tested some games on vanilla Wine and performance was considerable.
 +
:: When I came to Arch, I was using Catalyst.  I was a pain to setup and maintain.  I was since persuaded by a Wine developer to switch to the radeon driver, as it is much easier to debug and submit patches upstream for either Wine or Radeon.  Not to mention Catalyst only ever "officially" supported Ubuntu, SUSE, and RedHat.
 +
:: Drop a line to the Catalyst talk page?  [[User:T1nk3r3r|T1nk3r3r]] ([[User talk:T1nk3r3r|talk]]) 17:27, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
 +
::: I think the message in the introduction is clear: '''If unsure, try the open source driver first, it will suit most needs and is generally less problematic'''. -- 09:37, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
 +
::::Sure, but the previous paragraph clearly tells 'if you want 3D performance, go for Catalyst', which is not very true anymore. --[[User:Ambrevar|Ambrevar]] ([[User talk:Ambrevar|talk]]) 09:43, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
 +
:::::I agree.  So we just need a clear statement from a benchmarking website that supports that.  Preferably something recent.
 +
:::::I will not question the removal of dubious statements, so long as that point is made clear in the edit summary. [[User:T1nk3r3r|T1nk3r3r]] ([[User talk:T1nk3r3r|talk]]) 19:00, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
 +
=== Benchmark ===
  
If none of the above work, then you can try running {{ic|<nowiki>vblank_mode=0 glxgears</nowiki>}} or {{ic|<nowiki>vblank_mode=1 glxgears</nowiki>}} to see which one works for you, then install {{ic|driconf}} via pacman and set that option in {{ic|~/.drirc}}.
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To be continued.

Revision as of 22:47, 11 February 2013

Questionable Statements

"Radeons from HD 2xxx to HD 6xxx ... (for example, powersaving is still in a testing phase)." I do believe this is now functional, from using my HD6770 with power_profile and the featureMatrix represented on X.org. Any objections to removal? T1nk3r3r (talk) 18:22, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

Is there any offical release note /commit log about powersaving support exit testing phase ? -- Fengchao (talk) 09:31, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
Excellent point. I think I can investigate that later today. Although the table on X.org showed most features functional across the board. This may have happened months ago. T1nk3r3r (talk) 19:03, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
I don't have time to cherry-pick through the commit logs. I skimmed through 2012. However, this page shows the options for powersaving, and the table clearly shows functions are complete for all but the oldest cards. On the flip side, where is the reference proving the original statement? T1nk3r3r (talk) 20:57, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
Then the testing phase statement could be removed. --Fengchao (talk) 12:54, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

KMS -- do we have to do anything at all to enable it?

The KMS sections says it's on by default, should we even have to put radeon in MODULES any longer? If not, the intro to that section should probably mention that "you can skip the rest of this section if 'dmesg|grep modesetting' shows 'radeon kernel modesetting enabled'.

(rc.conf/MODULES are deprecated with systemd) Thinking about it, I don't explicitly recall having to enable it for the default ARCH kernel. The late start section may indeed be rendered redunant. Can anyone confirm this on a fresh install? T1nk3r3r (talk) 18:45, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
From this page, it is stated that the current behavior is to autodetect. So as long as the module is available and the hardware is there, it will load without intervention. It only remains to be stated when this started -- for now we can simply say: currently. Leave a link to xorg? T1nk3r3r (talk) 21:06, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

KMS Early

I don't know how others feel about this, but my preferred setup is to put options radeon modeset=1 in modprobe.conf and then to include modprobe.con along with the radeon module in mkinitcpio.conf. This way KMS is enabled once for both early and late start. Also, in the event of problems, radeon.modeset=1 can still be added as a kernel option to the bootloader. --piezoelectric

The bigger question here is: How early is Early? If I'm not mistaken: boot options come first, then initramfs, then modprobe.conf once the final root filesystem is mounted. If it is enabled at boot, any other toggles may be rendered pointless. This may only be applicable if firmware needs to be compiled into the kernel (newer cards). On the other hand, see parent section here. T1nk3r3r (talk) 18:45, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

Enabling video acceleration

~/.bashrc is the wrong place for setting this environment variables. This file is not consulted when starting i.e. firefox from the gnome shell. As it is a hardware dependent setting that is reasonable for every user on this box, i created a file in /etc/profile.d/ to accomplish this.

Setting this variables makes a difference when using flashplayer for youtube videos. When set, flashplayer reports accelerated rendering enabled at home with my ati hd3200 onboard graphics and rendering is faster in full screen mode.

It works now no more worse than under windows.

Radeon vs. Catalyst

Catalyst

The ATI and Catalyst pages state that Catalyst performs better for 3D. As most of you may have experienced, the Catalyst driver is clunky and very badly optimized for Linux. Gaming performance is usually worse than on Windows. Catalyst and Nvidia drivers do not uses Unix interfaces properly (Linux kernel and Xorg), a big part of it is just a bunch of hacks. See what the nouveau folks think. It's probably a matter of syncing development between different platforms, so adapting the driver as less as possible from Windows is probably more profitable. The lack of respect for interfaces has one major issue: the compatibility with Xorg and Kernels is extremely fragile. Besides, a lot of features or simply not reliable (or at least a real pain to setup) with these drivers, such as dual head / external output, custom kernels, hibernation...

It would be a great relief for the Unix communities to finally have a free, full-featured and top class 3D graphic driver.

Radeon

AMD did a very good thing when they decided to release the specs of their cards. FOSS radeon driver is now lightyears beyond nouveau in term of OpenGL implementation. The FOSS radeon driver seems like the ideal future of Unix graphics to me.

Since version 9.0.* from late 2012 and January 2013, OpenGL implementation has moved several steps forward as you can see on the feature matrix. In fact, I've tested several games (native or Wine) and radeon performs much better than catalyst most of the times.

For performance and Unix-frendliness, I suggest we should encourage Unix users to choose radeon over catalyst. Too many people are held up in their switching-to-Unix because of the terrible, infamous catalyst, even if all they need is average 3D graphics.

Since this revolution is brand new, it requires support from the community. We also need concrete data that states the progress, the support and the performance of radeon compared to catalyst.

I suggest we create a benchmark page for that. Should we create a new page? I'll begin it below for now, but we shall move it in the future.

--Ambrevar (talk) 12:07, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

A benchmark page could be informative, especially for newcomers that are having a difficult time making up their minds. AMD is actually shifting support from Catalyst to radeon drivers. They had hired two bodies to work on the radeon driver. But then I came across this: http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/AMD-dismisses-numerous-open-source-developers-1745131.html
I just found this: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/02/05/amd_open_source_hd_8000_drivers/print.html
Regardless, there has been a lot of headway in the last four years. I recently tested some games on vanilla Wine and performance was considerable.
When I came to Arch, I was using Catalyst. I was a pain to setup and maintain. I was since persuaded by a Wine developer to switch to the radeon driver, as it is much easier to debug and submit patches upstream for either Wine or Radeon. Not to mention Catalyst only ever "officially" supported Ubuntu, SUSE, and RedHat.
Drop a line to the Catalyst talk page? T1nk3r3r (talk) 17:27, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
I think the message in the introduction is clear: If unsure, try the open source driver first, it will suit most needs and is generally less problematic. -- 09:37, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
Sure, but the previous paragraph clearly tells 'if you want 3D performance, go for Catalyst', which is not very true anymore. --Ambrevar (talk) 09:43, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
I agree. So we just need a clear statement from a benchmarking website that supports that. Preferably something recent.
I will not question the removal of dubious statements, so long as that point is made clear in the edit summary. T1nk3r3r (talk) 19:00, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

Benchmark

To be continued.