Difference between revisions of "Talk:Beginners' guide"

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== Unification ==
#REDIRECT: [[Talk:Installation guide]]
=== A single, unified official install guide ===
{{Note|This is based on talk/consensus in #archlinux. The official [[Installation Guide]] page is going to be expanded (or this guide could be protected, cleaned up and replace it - either works, that could be decided here).}}
Previously, there has been talk here about merging with the old official install guide, and just having a single official [[Installation Guide]]. However, that didn't happen when the old guide was removed because the [[Beginners' Guide]] was (and is) too long, with too much duplication of other pages after the point where it's necessary (getting the initial network access). In order to be an "official" document, it would also have to be protected - edits by regular users would be proposed on the talk page.
The installation process now always requires network access, and the ISO ships with both a browser and an IRC client, so it's not necessary to keep so much information on this page, since we have very good coverage elsewhere that surpasses the duplication here. For example, there's no need for the [[Beginners' Guide]] to explain how to do an upgrade as [[Pacman#Upgrading packages]] has much better coverage of the gritty details, and the initial install is already fully upgraded.
-- [[User:Thestinger|thestinger]] ([[User talk:Thestinger|talk]]) 21:52, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
:Yes, the ISO comes with a browser ({{Pkg|elinks}}), but it's not very good with formatting. Some people may prefer to actually print the guide ''(which is a waste of paper, if you ask me, but old timers may feel differently)'', or save it as a PDF/HTML and read it on whatever device they own (smartphone, tablet, etc).
No need to create a section for this, just reminding that the unification would affect {{Bug|36111}}. -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 06:57, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
=== Define scope of the guide ===
I'd like to define the scope of the guide(s) better and whether it's OK to remove certain things from the wiki instead of marking them as 'the old way' and maybe moving them to a separate article, if needed. Currently the beginners' guide still has info related to initscripts, like [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Beginners%27_Guide#Time_zone setting the timezone], but the article on time [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Time#Time_standard has not]. -- [[User:Karol|Karol]] ([[User talk:Karol|talk]]) 09:56, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
: Right now the Beginner's Guide is "A page where user can get their system installed '''without reading other pages'''". This is where the duplications come from. Maybe we can redefine it. So we can:
: # Improve [[Help:Reading]]. Add some guide about Navigation, Searching, Category and Table of Contents. So users can reach the information they want more easily.
: # Reduce long duplication texts. The two network configuration part is a candicate.  -- [[User:Fengchao|Fengchao]] ([[User talk:Fengchao|talk]]) 07:46, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
:The reason for using the manual way of configuring is actually because timedatectl and friends won't work from inside a chroot. We could avoid that by having users reboot before configuring this stuff (time, hostname, etc. aren't critical at all) but that would require some minor restructuring, so it's something worth discussing. [[User:Thestinger|thestinger]] ([[User talk:Thestinger|talk]]) 17:28, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
::''[This comment was pasted here from a different, now deleted discussion]''
:: I think that the goal of the Beginners' Guide is not only to let an Arch novice install the system successfully, but also to introduce him to how an Arch Linux system is structured and the technologies it's based on: we shouldn't think of the Beginners' Guide (or any other article) as a simple howto or step-by-step guide, but as something more formative. -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 15:40, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
=== Plan ===
If someone was interested and had the time to lay out here a '''detailed''' plan with indications on where to merge every section of the guide and a report of all the problems that could be encountered in the process, it would definitely be the final step before announcing the unification on the forums with full support from the admins, which would mean that at that point only strong and reasonable objections could prevent the unification. -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 06:44, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
Here is a list of sections that should be merged. Feel free to expand, comment in [[#Comments]]. -- [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 18:26, 31 August 2013‎ (UTC)
* [[Beginners' guide#Prepare the storage devices]]. See [[#Replace_parted_with_cfdisk.2Fcgdisk]].
** Contains more information on parted than the actual [[parted]], merge back details.
** Improve the [[fdisk]] article and use it as a possible method of partioning.
** Information on dual-booting with Windows could be linked earlier in the article.
** Use [[:Category:Partitioning]] instead of a list of partitioning tools?
** Small TL;DR on difference between BIOS and UEFI, or place it in the [[UEFI]] article.
** MBR: limit of 4 partitions and use of Extended partitions. This isn't mentioned in the [[MBR]] article, but in [[GUID Partition Table]]!
* [[Beginners' guide#Wireless_2]]: "processes", elaborate in [[netctl]] instead? Also, no reference to the copied configuration file in [[#Establish an internet connection]].
* Link to typographic conventions used on wiki pages where applicable.
** ''pacman'': [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Beginners%27_guide&diff=400266&oldid=400243]
** ''systemctl''
* Lay out remaining differences with the [[Installation guide]], and either merge or discard them on a '''case-by-case basis'''.
** Relation between ''genfstab'' and ''swapon''.
* [[Beginners' guide#Mirrors]]
** The idea ships a ready mirror file, and modifying it is recommended, though not necessary.
** Reword to include local considerations?
* Move instructions on BIOS boot order to [[USB flash installation media]].
* Tip on using ''elinks'' to browse the guide in another TTY, and ''irssi'' to discuss issues from the live environment.
* Warning on avoiding "tutorials" not hosted on the wiki main space.
* Mention --help / -h as a manual is not always available.
==== General problems ====
* (Not sure if an actual problem) Make effective use of links so that at most two clicks are required to find the right section. Avoid redundancy.
* Just a general reminder to those working on this: keep track of how your changes impact users (follow this discussion page, [https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewforum.php?id=17 BBS Installation] and [[IRC]])
* [[Swap]] is ''not'' optional. [http://unix.stackexchange.com/a/190521]
** Or at least recommended in most cases.
* Use {{ic|Tab}} more in instructions?
==== Comments ====
=== Installation template ===
Another alternative way to unify the two main guides would be to follow the same philosophy we used to write the scenarios in [[Dm-crypt_with_LUKS/Encrypting_an_entire_system]], originally discussed in [[Talk:Dm-crypt#New_idea]]: the new installation guide could be a bare, though ''complete'', list of commands and simple instructions needed to install the system in one example scenario, with links to the various relevant articles for detailed information and adaptations to specific cases. -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 21:18, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
:Well, the Beginners' guide suffers from issues related to both content and style, and I really think they need to be addressed at the same time. Every suggestion so far deals only with one problem.
:'''Content:''' I agree that the purpose of the guide (be it Beginners' or Installation) should be to describe only one scenario and provide links to other articles describing the alternatives. I really like ''this part'' of your suggestion, but it solves only half of the problem.
:'''Style:''' The biggest problem is that Beginners' guide is unique mixture of ''introduction to reading ArchWiki'' and ''introduction to installing and '''using''' Arch Linux'', which are simply inseparable in the context of BG - you just can't expect newcomers to first read [[Help:Reading]] and only then start installing their system. So, there is a little bit of anarchy, as the BG is mostly excused from the [[Help:Style|style guidelines]] and there are no guidelines specifically for the BG. Unifying the two guides would necessarily mean a compromise regarding style, which would not be the best for either beginners or gurus.
:Also, I think that it is a good thing that BG is readable ''without reading other pages'' (as defined in [[#Define scope of the guide]]), because it implies that the most important things have been collected and the readers don't have to click-and-search ''too much''. This is really important for the newcomers, because the orientation in the graph of internal links (I wanted to visualize the graph, but it's just too big) is really difficult - they would need to read dozens of pages (with some [[Help:Style|alien style]] applied) before they had the basic system running. On the other hand, one of the main points of BG should be to prepare the readers for other ArchWiki articles, but sometimes the readers are [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Talk:NetworkManager&diff=291207&oldid=285657 too] [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Talk:NetworkManager&diff=304473&oldid=295238 spoiled].
:Well, that is my defence of keeping both IG and BG. In my opinion it is enough to just properly define the scope of BG and trim it down to ease the maintenance, addressing the ''content'' part. But of course if there is a suggestion on merging the two guides addressing the ''style'' issues, let's hear it!
:-- [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 11:16, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
::About the style issue, I don't think experienced users would be so bothered by some pacman, systemctl or nano examples, and the unified guide should probably explicitly warn users that they won't find similar examples in the other articles, which would be a perfect way to invite them to become familiar with [[pacman]], [[systemd]], [[Help:Reading]]... Besides, if the guide will be properly structured, experienced users who don't have their own custom installation notes will be able to just follow the automatic ToC as a memory refresher.
::I disagree that the fact that the "BG is readable ''without reading other pages''" is a good thing, as that's exactly the reason that makes it hard to maintain and encourages duplication of information; if users were used to follow links instead, most of the efforts now spent in improving the BG would be instead spent in properly improving the linked articles, which would then become as easy to follow as the BG is now.
::Anyway, I've proposed a change in [[#Comments]] (under [[#Plan]]) that I think should be more likely to reach general consensus, and that would already be a good step forward.
::-- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 03:35, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
:::I'm beginning to understand the need for merging. After the BG is slimmed down to cover only one example scenario, the title will be just wrong and the scope will be ''exactly'' the same as for IG. It all depends on whether different target audience and related style differences are enough to justify two guides.
:::I hate being the blocker, so let's slim down BG and when it comes to the point of merging with IG, at least it will not be so shocking. I can't help but to think about it as simple redirecting of BG to IG, which will be (more or less) the eventual outcome, so I will need some time to absorb.
:::Finally, we should also look at [[ArchWiki:Requests#Cleanup: installation category]], so that [[:Category:Getting and installing Arch]] is actually useful for providing alternative scenarios, and to ensure there is a place where to move excessive information from the BG.
:::-- [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 07:35, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
::::You are not "the blocker", every opinion is as valuable as the others if well argumented, be it for or against the proposal. Especially in this case where we seem to be the only 2 people interested in discussing...
::::If the unification will eventually be completed, of course the BG will become a redirect to the IG, and the latter will be unprotected (and well watched so it's not turned again into a BG).
::::Let's go on with the change very gradually, that's definitely the best way to let everyone successfully and happily adapt to the new way of following the document, which, if done properly, will be even easier and clearer (no need to compare two guides anymore, just to mention an advantage).
::::Of course [[ArchWiki:Requests#Cleanup: installation category]] is strictly linked to all this, I'll try to get there too.
::::-- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 05:26, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
:::::Just as a note, [[:Category:Getting and installing Arch]] has since made great progress, and replaced most of the "introductory" content in the BG. :) [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Beginners%27_guide&diff=394011&oldid=393888] [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Beginners%27_guide&diff=400221&oldid=400209] -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 00:21, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
=== Page protection ===
I personally would suggest leaving the Installation guide locked after the merger (even if that would lock me out also :). Thing is, if someone went through the effort of researching an addition to the guide, it would be easy for them to bring it up here, in the talk page, and easier for the community to discuss (and implement, if applicable).
Leaving the Installation guide unprotected however would make it open to hasty edits. Even if the IG were well watched as said, a made edit's context may not be sufficiently clear to "judge" it on the spot (confirmed by [[ArchWiki:Reports]]). Having contested content remain (however short) on the main, "official" installation reference is less than ideal.
A compromise may be similar to the [[IRC]] page, which is not protected in the technical sense, but has a warning urging users not to edit the page without prior consensus. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 23:30, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
:Once upon a time, I absolutely don't even remember where, we even discussed the option of keeping the guide in a protected page, but do all the modifications in a separate open page (as if they were two "master" and "devel" branches), with the admins periodically approving and merging the unstable page into the official one. Thanks to the recently introduced [[Special:MergeHistory]] tool, this job could be easier nowadays. — [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 14:06, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
::That sounds like a good option. Working hypothesis: to make users accustomed to the idea, we could now add a note at the top of the BG, suggesting to first discuss changes on the talk page. After the merger this note would then point to the "development" page. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 20:39, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
:::I think that [[Special:MergeHistory]] is too primitive tool for this, AFAIK its only way of operation is "merge all revisions ''up to'' specified one", i.e. there is no ''cherry-picking'' of feasible revisions. -- [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 20:50, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
::::@Alad I'm still thinking about it, I'm not sure whether having 2 protected installation guides would be too confusing. The branch method would certainly be well suited if we really ended up merging the guides into one.
::::@Lahwaacz The way it would work would be (''master'' is protected, contains the whole revisions history and ''will not receive direct edits'' by anyone, including admins):
:::::# ''develop'' is initialized with a simple copy of the latest revision of ''master''
:::::# Some users make some edits to ''develop''
:::::# The wiki staff amends/undos ''develop'' as necessary with additional edits (like it happens now in the only branch)
:::::# Once ''develop'' is considered in a good state, [[Special:MergeHistory]] can be used safely, no need for cherry-picking
:::::# Go back to 1 (at this step ''develop'' is a redirect to ''master'')
::::— [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 13:09, 17 March 2015 (UTC)
::::A simpler alternative with the same effect would be maintaining a link that points to the latest officially approved revision in the history of the article, for example in a Note in the intro. — [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 13:13, 17 March 2015 (UTC)
:::::Take your time, it will take a lot more work to get the BG anywhere near ready for merging. A link with note sounds viable as well; we could add a table with different options below. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 22:08, 17 March 2015 (UTC)
::::::To add another suggestion, the Talk page of both guides works well in implementing and discussing changes, ''when used''. Often, you see remarks scattered throughout IRC and the forums. As such, we could expand the scope by opening a new thread in the forums, e.g "The Installation Guide thread" and ask it to be made sticky. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 17:25, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
::::::We could even suggest users to make a (partial) copy in their user pages to propose their changes. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 10:11, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
== Linked to 'parted' Manual doesn't list ext3 or ext4 for fs-type ==
Hi guys. Recent Arch convert here. Loving it. No bloat! Noticed this during Beginners Guid install though:
In the section on using parted ( [[Beginners%27_guide#Partition_schemes]] ), it links to the Gnu parted manual at [http://www.gnu.org/software/parted/manual/parted.html#mkpart http://www.gnu.org/software/parted/manual/parted.html#mkpart] for fs-types, but the (rather dated?) manual doesn't list ext3 or ext4. At this point I 'guessed' ext2 was the right choice... Only to find that LATER in the 'Beginners Guide' page it recommended ext4. Damn! Wasn't sure if I had to go back and re-do. Seemed not. But anyway, confusing for 'Beginners'. Anyway, dare not edit the wiki being an Arch noob at this point. Keep up the good work! Cheers. -- [[User:Peterg4000|Peterg4000]] ([[User talk:Peterg4000|talk]]) 00:53, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
:Yes, this is a rather confusing concept: the file system type associated to a partition is a different thing from the file system that you later use to format that partition... It's explained in a bit clearer way in [[Wikipedia:Disk_partitioning#PC_partition_types]], but we should probably explain it better here too.
:In theory, using "ext2", "ext3" or "ext4" when you use {{ic|(parted) mkpart}} shouldn't make any difference at all, as they all set the same partition type code. What does make a difference is the file system you choose when you actually format the partition in [[Beginners'_guide#Create_filesystems]].
:Of course it's wise to make sure the ''fs-type'' corresponds to the file system that is going to be used, but even though I've never tested it, I guess you could use e.g. "NTFS" for ''fs-type'' and still be able to format the partition with ext4 or whatever file system you want.
:— [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 13:49, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
:: Oh, so for ext3/4 one should just set fs-type to ext2 in parted (etc). Lesson learnt. A one liner would be good saying something like "If you don't know any better, set fs-type to ext2 (Which is the correct option for ext2/3/4), and then format with ext4 below." -- [[User:Peterg4000|Peterg4000]] ([[User talk:Peterg4000|talk]]) 23:32, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
:::We needed something more generic and educational, I've added [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Beginners%27_guide&action=historysubmit&diff=368977&oldid=368819], I hope it's clear enough, please re-open the discussion if it's not :) — [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 07:17, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
::::Looks great. Loving the Arch way, community, Wiki etc. Cheers. -- [[User:Peterg4000|Peterg4000]] ([[User talk:Peterg4000|talk]]) 08:49, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
::::Actually, parted 3.2 has an explicit label for ext4: {{bc|<nowiki>
(parted) help mkpart                                                     
  mkpart PART-TYPE [FS-TYPE] START END    make a partition
        FS-TYPE is one of: btrfs, nilfs2, </nowiki>'''ext4, ext3'''<nowiki>, ext2, fat32, fat16, hfsx, hfs+, hfs, jfs, swsusp, linux-swap(v1), linux-swap(v0),
        ntfs, reiserfs, hp-ufs, sun-ufs, xfs, apfs2, apfs1, asfs, amufs5, amufs4, amufs3, amufs2, amufs1, amufs0, amufs, affs7, affs6,
        affs5, affs4, affs3, affs2, affs1, affs0, linux-swap, linux-swap(new), linux-swap(old)
::::If they are all mapped to the same partition code is another matter, so I'm fine with the current wording. Alternatively we could leave out FS-TYPE completely, after all it is optional (but this is not reflected in the BG).
::::-- [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 14:41, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
:::::Do we want to reopen and investigate this further? Thanks for reminding of the help command, however I can find many sources that seem to confirm that many Linux native file systems (but not all of the above!) map to 0x83: [http://www.win.tue.nl/~aeb/partitions/partition_types-1.html] [http://askubuntu.com/questions/230930/whats-the-difference-of-partition-type-and-filesystem-type] [http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/Partition-Mass-Storage-Definitions-Naming-HOWTO/x190.html] [http://thestarman.pcministry.com/asm/mbr/PartTypes.htm] [http://datarecovery.com/rd/hexadecimal-flags-for-partition-type/]. Unfortunately, as [[Wikipedia:Partition_type#Overview]] says, these codes are not standardized, so we won't be able to find an official reference. Last thing, quoting the [http://www.gnu.org/software/parted/manual/parted.html#mkpart manual], " fs-type is required for data partitions (i.e., non-extended partitions)", so I wouldn't leave it out as optional. — [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 09:46, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
::::::The clearest would either be {{ic|mkpart primary linux}} or {{ic|mkpartfs ext4}} but I doubt either is supported... -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 12:47, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
:::::::I doubt too, I've [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Beginners%27_guide&diff=369201&oldid=368977 replaced] the link to the manual with "help mkpart". — [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 13:21, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
:::::::I wasn't sure where to put this as I'm also new and it's really minor, but also in the parted section when making partitions it says to put 'm' for MiB, this should probably be updated as in my install just 'm' set my sizes to MB not MiB. Suggest updating or preferably instructing the user to define units when entering parted: so set units MiB or GiB or whatever so that just numbers can be used afterwards in creating partitions.[[User:Jjex22|Jjex22]] ([[User talk:Jjex22|talk]]) 05:04, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
== Replace parted with cfdisk/cgdisk ==
So, just wanna throw this out there for discussion. I've always found cfdisk/cgdisk to be much more beginner-friendly and intuitive than parted. Since this is the "Beginner's Guide" wouldn't it make sense to recommend using these tools? At the very least, it might be good to mention that they are visual partitioning tools when they are listed in the "partitioning tools" section. Thoughts? -- [[User:A Future Pilot|A Future Pilot]] ([[User talk:A Future Pilot|talk]]) 14:21, 13 July 2015 (UTC)
:Related: [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Talk:Beginners%27_guide&oldid=354845#Partitioning]
:I personally wouldn't mind revisiting the topic on fdisk vs. parted (unsure on the benefits of cfdisk or cgdisk - they're not "visual" besides a more-or-less clunky table format, and fdisk has a print switch). This however implies merging Parted content to [[parted]] as mentioned in [[#Plan]]. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 14:53, 13 July 2015 (UTC)
::This could be done. The recommendations were different in the past:
::* [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Beginners%27_guide&oldid=259921#Example 31st May 2013] - cfdisk/cgdisk used here
::* [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Beginners%27_guide&oldid=321625#Prepare_the_storage_drive 26th June 2014] - cgdisk & fdisk used here
::are just a couple of examples. -- [[User:Chazza|Chazza]] ([[User talk:Chazza|talk]]) 15:17, 13 July 2015 (UTC)
:::I personally also favor (c)fdisk. I think it both are very clear for beginners, and they can handle both MBR and GPT (no need for (c)gdisk).
:::In any case, I think we should choose a tool which can handle both GPT and MBR partitioning schemes, because otherwise things will get messy again. This is one of the reasons why we changed to parted: it supports both (and back then, there was some question about the stability of fdisk's GPT support, but I'm sure it is fine now; I've personally never has issues). [[User:Lonaowna|Lonaowna]] ([[User talk:Lonaowna|talk]]) 17:14, 13 July 2015 (UTC)
::::This is obviously too subjective from those being used to one specific tool. I personally find parted to be easier to understand because you write the whole commands instead of just a couple of meaningless letters. Granted, all tools have a help page built in, provide a detailed man page and there is a bunch of "tutorials" for every possible scenario. So, is it even possible to select the "most beginner-friendly" tool or should we decide based on different factor? In any case, there should be only one tool described in detail in the BG and alternatives should be linked to. -- [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 17:23, 13 July 2015 (UTC)
:::::I agree with your last point, that there should only be one tool described in the BG.
:::::But I cannot see how we can choose one on other criteria than "beginner-friendly", as all candidates should be able to provide the same functionality. What other factors are there to decide on?
:::::The only I can think of is that fdisk ({{pkg|util-linux}}) is in [core] and {{Grp|base}}, and {{pkg|parted}} is not. But both are on the installation ISO, so I'm not sure if that matters at all.
:::::I am afraid that there is no real criterion to decide by, except for "beginner/user-friendliness", which is indeed subjective. [[User:Lonaowna|Lonaowna]] ([[User talk:Lonaowna|talk]]) 21:22, 13 July 2015 (UTC)
::::::We could circumvent the issue by adding detailed examples to the articles in question, rather than describing one particular tool in the BG. In addition, we could add a few sentences outlining basic differences between the tools. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 10:09, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
:::::::As said, the BG switched from fdisk to parted only a few months ago (which in wiki terms means "yesterday"), so we can't keep going back and forth like in a loop. At this point, I support Alad's proposal above to move the examples to the specialized articles, which also goes in the [[#Unification]] direction (and this discussion itself is yet another argument in support of that plan). — [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 11:49, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
:::::::: I would like to concur with Alad and Kynikos on this. It should be up to the user to choose the appropriate tool, and the information from the BG should be merged into the [[GNU Parted]] article, which keeps the BG moving towards [[#Unification]]. [[User:Pid1|Pid1]] ([[User talk:Pid1|talk]]) 22:50, 25 July 2015 (UTC)
:::::::::As proposed in [[Talk:Partitioning#remove_gdisk_instructions_for_install_medium_2013-11]], I've split [[fdisk]]: if the BG will become partitioning-tool-agnostic, that article will have to be improved as well. — [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 04:13, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
== Replace systemd-boot with GRUB (UEFI) ==
I'm curious if we could expand the GRUB section with a few commands for UEFI/GPT, rather than have a complete section on systemd-boot. I'm aware systemd-boot is the "default" on the ArchISO, but we don't use syslinux for BIOS/MBR installs either. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 18:30, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
:Implemented [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Beginners%27_guide&type=revision&diff=394027&oldid=394017]. There are a few rough edges left, but I think this can be closed. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 07:24, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
::Is there any good reason for this besides the fact that it simplifies the guide? Also, the information that the EFI partition has to be at least 512MB large is just wrong. That should be removed. [[User:Protake|Protake]] ([[User talk:Protake|talk]]) 13:49, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
:::Simplifying the guide / reducing duplicated efforts is reason enough. If people want to use a different boot loader, they can use the relevant articles.
:::As to the ESP, we could link to [[Unified_Extensible_Firmware_Interface#EFI_System_Partition]] for details on requirements. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 14:01, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
::::I've weakened the wording on recommended size [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Beginners%27_guide&diff=396531&oldid=396530] [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Beginners%27_guide&diff=396799&oldid=396531] [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Beginners%27_guide&action=historysubmit&type=revision&diff=396808&oldid=396799]. Do you think this is enough, or should we explicitely mention a lower value? -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 10:02, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
:Personally, I think this is a really bad idea. It gives the impression that GRUB is the recommended bootloader, which is most definitely NOT the case for UEFI.
:[[User:Scimmia|Scimmia]] ([[User talk:Scimmia|talk]]) 02:53, 5 September 2015 (UTC)
::Thanks for pointing that out. I've replaced it, and also got rid of the arbitrary 512 MiB size. [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Beginners%27_guide&type=revision&diff=398375&oldid=398253] As mentioned in the summary, this is better explained in the ESP article, and [[Beginners' guide#Prepare the storage devices]] already has a matching example.
::Further thoughts ? -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 12:50, 5 September 2015 (UTC)
:::Thanks, using systemd-boot as an example is definitely better than using GRUB. Still not really ideal, IMO, but I don't have a better idea. I understand the need to have an example here.
:::[[User:Scimmia|Scimmia]] ([[User talk:Scimmia|talk]]) 14:59, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
== <s>Replace commands with their systemd equivalents</s> ==
I would suggest changing everything which can be done using systemd. For example use hostnamectl and localectl instead of setting the locale manually.
[[User:PetaByteBoy|PetaByteBoy]] ([[User talk:PetaByteBoy|talk]]) 11:23, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
:This was discussed here. [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Talk:Beginners%27_guide&diff=388728&oldid=388727] The idea was dismissed because you want users (especially beginners) to know on the basic tools, instead of provide an abstraction right away. Also, most of the *ctl tools don't work in a chroot, so it would require some restructuring.
:I do admit some of the steps are error-prone. As we instruct users to set LANG=en_US.UTF8 anyway, we could for example replace the echo command with {{ic|locale > /etc/locale.conf}} as was done prior to [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Installation_guide&diff=339449&oldid=337646 this revision] of the Installation guide. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 12:20, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
::For the timezone, ''tzselect'' was added. [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Beginners%27_guide&diff=400160&oldid=399525] For the above ''locale'' command, this adds a lot of redundant entries to locale.conf. At least, people are now directed to use an editor, instead of an echo command, to edit the file. [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Beginners%27_guide&diff=400276&oldid=400272]
::Closing, feel free to reopen if you have a better idea. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 09:23, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
== <s>Add a sentence on boot loaders in different distributions</s> ==
For example, in [[Beginners' guide#Boot loader]]
:"If you want to manage Arch boot loader entries from a different distribution, skip these steps and refer to the respective documentation."
Simply because this is a less invasive alternative. However, I don't know if this works well regarding [[Microcode]] updates. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 15:17, 7 September 2015 (UTC) edit: [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 16:07, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
:Would they manage the whole Arch installation or just the boot loader entries from a different distribution? -- [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 15:24, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
::In this case, just the boot loader entries. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 15:42, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
:::Then I think you should update the tba sentence accordingly :) [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 15:46, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
::::Fair enough, updated. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 16:07, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
:::::In hindsight, this likely makes support harder, and if anywhere should be mentioned in [[Boot loaders]]. Closing. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 09:17, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
== "See ''foo''" vs "See the ''foo'' article" ==
This revision [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Beginners%27_guide&diff=400266&oldid=400243] added a new mention of "See the ''foo'' article", rather than the more common "See ''foo''". I'd argue former is the better form, and when the guide is viewed from a .txt (if the BG/IG merge completes), the longer wording makes sense as well. Are there opinions against using the longer form throughout the BG? -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 00:13, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
:I'm neutral, so that doesn't count as an opinion against ^^ That said, the long form can only be used with links to entire articles, but more difficultly with links to specific sections such as "See also [[Pacman#pacman crashes the official installation media]]", since in those cases a more natural-sounding long form should be something like "See also the 'pacman crashes the official installation media' section of the [[Pacman]] article", I think, which is clearly ugly to see and use, so consistency is a bit hard to reach. — [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 16:13, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
::I guess the proper solution would be to incorporate links in the article text where possible. "See X" gets repetitive fast, anyway. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 14:44, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
== Redirects to sections ==
:''[Moved from [[User talk:Alad]]. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 00:17, 18 September 2015 (UTC)]''
Are you sure about [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Beginners%27_guide&diff=next&oldid=393417 this]? I don't think javascript has anything to do with this, it should be the browser's feature. At least here with firefox + noscript everything works fine... -- [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 21:47, 23 August 2015 (UTC)
:Odd, it didn't work for me (also FF/Noscript) and someone on IRC had a similar issue... I'll try again (with Chromium) and report back. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 03:43, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
::Funny (not so much...), it should be [https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T53736 #T53736] :( For example I can reproduce it on Firefox by disabling JS with the [https://addons.mozilla.org/en-us/firefox/addon/web-developer/ Web Developer] extension. What do we do, do we really start avoiding redirects to sections?? I'm against, I'd rather wait for [https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T53736#556866 some kind] of fix upstream instead. — [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 03:55, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
:::Oops, I tested it twice with and without javascript and of course the second time the URL was already mangled by the javascript from the first time. -- [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 07:30, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
== <s>Case of "Internet"</s> ==
Revisiting [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Talk:Beginners%27_guide&diff=380016&oldid=380015], I noticed the [[Installation guide]] still has Internet capitalized, and I changed this article to reflect it. "internet" is a generic term used for different interconnected-networks, while here we mean "the" Internet. From ''Computer Networks'' (4th Ed., Andrew Tanenbaum):
:Many networks exist in the world, often with different hardware and software. People connected to one network often want to communicate with people attached to a different one. The fulfillment of this desire requires that different, and frequently incompatible networks, be connected, sometimes by means of machines called gateways to make the connection and provide the necessary translation, both in terms of hardware and software. A collection of interconnected networks is called an internetwork or internet. These terms will be used in a generic sense, in contrast to the worldwide Internet (which is one specific internet), which we will always capitalize.
-- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 22:16, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 11:31, 9 September 2016