Talk:Beginners' guide

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Revision as of 19:26, 7 April 2013 by Xananax (talk | contribs) (Wireless Connection)
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  1. Please make all editing suggestions here.
  2. Please keep discussions civil and productive.

Thanks. Misfit138 15:23, 22 October 2009 (EDT)

Network Configuration

In my opinion the network configuration section is no longer correct and it should be replaced with the correct section from this page. At least, the static IP configuration section does not work for me. This is probably caused by the switch to systemd. --Doru001 (talk) 16:49, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Merge two network config section

Most of this section is a repeat of info already presented earlier in the guide (most notably in 3.1.1).

I understand that directing users to 3.1.1 when they've already got a system up and running isn't that great of an idea since they are no longer in the live environment and some things are different (but not much!), but surely something can be done to reduce the redunancy (especially on the 4.1.2 Wireless LAN section, which is basically a 1:1 copy of Xgamer99 19:49, 8 January 2011 (EST)

Went ahead and made the edit, as I can't see anything wrong with it. Please let me know if you disagree. However, I still believe that 4.1 should be re-worked and merged with 3.1.1, and just have 4.1 direct users to it. The only thing that would need to be added is the Proxy settings and manual wired connection (installer handles wired connections flawlessly, so manual activation isn't covered in 3.1.1). Xgamer99 04:00, 9 January 2011 (EST)
Reopen this discuss. Those two network configuration section still exist. They should be merged. -- Fengchao (talk) 10:16, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Troubleshooting boot problems

nomodeset and video=SVIDEO-1:d dindn't solve my blank screen problem with that board. The video= setting depends on the port, the display is connected. I have my display connected via VGA, so video=VGA-1:1280x800 did do it for me. I don't know if this will solve the problem for the majority of the users. I don't need to care about the display, because I just want to setup SSH and then never need a Display for that box anymore.

A single, unified official install guide

Note: This is based on talk/consensus in #archlinux. The official Installation Guide page is going to be expanded (or this guide could be protected, cleaned up and replace it - either works, that could be decided here).

Previously, there has been talk here about merging with the old official install guide, and just having a single official Installation Guide. However, that didn't happen when the old guide was removed because the Beginners' Guide was (and is) too long, with too much duplication of other pages after the point where it's necessary (getting the initial network access). In order to be an "official" document, it would also have to be protected - edits by regular users would be proposed on the talk page.

The installation process now always requires network access, and the ISO ships with both a browser and an IRC client, so it's not necessary to keep so much information on this page, since we have very good coverage elsewhere that surpasses the duplication here. For example, there's no need for the Beginners' Guide to explain how to do an upgrade as Pacman#Upgrading packages has much better coverage of the gritty details, and the initial install is already fully upgraded.

-- thestinger (talk) 21:52, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

Yes, the ISO comes with a browser (elinks), but it's not very good with formatting. Some people may prefer to actually print the guide (which is a waste of paper, if you ask me, but old timers may feel differently), or save it as a PDF/HTML and read it on whatever device they own (smartphone, tablet, etc).

Seperate pages

What I would like to see instead is a unified Beginners' Guide. Because currently, it's segmented into Preface, Preparation, Installation and Extra. Seriously, does anyone actually read it this way?
--DSpider (talk) 12:40, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
Printing could be improved: FS#30825. -- Karol (talk) 13:39, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
The Beginners' Guide is segmented in different subpages for ease of maintenance: if you want to read it in a single page, you can do it easily anyway. -- Kynikos (talk) 14:38, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
Ease of aintenance? How so? Personally I think it just complicates things. --DSpider (talk) 07:11, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
i18n is an example. A single big page is much harder to check for diff. -- Fengchao (talk) 07:46, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

Include arch-wiki-lite to ISO

I'm also going to see if arch-wiki-lite can be included on the ISO instead of the current little overview of the install process in /root. -- thestinger (talk) 18:07, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

You said it yourself that you need an internet connection anyway. The arch-wiki-lite package contains an older snapshot of the wiki, and if someone were to read it at the end of the month before a new release, they could essentially be reading outdated information. --DSpider (talk) 07:11, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
I don't see the point of including arch-wiki-lite.
It's true at the moment that it's not always kept up-to-date, but it could be generated every month with the new installation image if it was a more important package, which as you point out isn't perfect either. The need for including it is that there are other pages needed to even obtain an internet connection for many users. It makes me sad to think that people are printing out this whole long guide when there's a computer in front of them :). thestinger (talk) 17:26, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

Define scope of the guide

I'd like to define the scope of the guide(s) better and whether it's OK to remove certain things from the wiki instead of marking them as 'the old way' and maybe moving them to a separate article, if needed. Currently the beginners' guide still has info related to initscripts, like setting the timezone, but the article on time has not. -- Karol (talk) 09:56, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

Right now the Beginner's Guide is "A page where user can get their system installed without reading other pages". This is where the duplications come from. Maybe we can redefine it. So we can:
# Improve Help:Reading. Add some guide about Navigation, Searching, Category and Table of Contents. So users can reach the information they want more easily.
# Reduce long duplication texts. The two network configuration part is a candicate. -- Fengchao (talk) 07:46, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
The reason for using the manual way of configuring is actually because timedatectl and friends won't work from inside a chroot. We could avoid that by having users reboot before configuring this stuff (time, hostname, etc. aren't critical at all) but that would require some minor restructuring, so it's something worth discussing. thestinger (talk) 17:28, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
I think that the goal of the Beginners' Guide is not only to let an Arch novice install the system successfully, but also to introduce him to how an Arch Linux system is structured and the technologies it's based on: we shouldn't think of the Beginners' Guide (or any other article) as a simple howto or step-by-step guide, but as something more formative. -- Kynikos (talk) 15:40, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Reloading font and keymap after arch-chroot

In the beginner's guide, after "arch-chroot /mnt" it says that we need to load keymap (loadkeys) and font (setfont) because the environment has changed... I installed Arch on a few computers so far and never did that, the keymap and font persisted even in the chroot. So maybe it isn't necessary and someone should remove that from the guide ?

Issues During Installation

Installed Arch on my laptop, during pacstrap the screen went blank, pressing SPACE, CTL+C ... didn't helped only modprobe.blacklist=radeon enabled me to go through the whole installation process. My graphic card is ATI M96 aka Mobility Radeon HD 4650. I believe this info and similar problems should be added to the beginner's guide on a Installation's Issues Troubleshooting section. I believe this is important enough to dual post and separate it from the Removing "Kernel modules" talk. p.s. I may add that this is my first desktop Linux experience--Dhead (talk) 06:20, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

User management

The 'User management' section has been changed in a really bad way: The 'archie' example was removed. Now there is just a link to [user management] like in the experts guide. A newbie now is left to guess which groups he should put his user to (wheel, power i.e.) and has to search deeper before he can proceed. The old entry was much better for beginners.

Blindly telling "Newbie" to create user using -G wheel create security risk. This guide require "Newbie" to choose and install their own bootloader. Basic user and group knowledge is much easier than that. And every Arch user should have no difficulty to grasp them. -- Fengchao (talk) 02:24, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
I second the first comment in a sense. The beginner's guide should hold everything related to the installation of Arch Linux through the command line right after they (the beginner's or "newbies") have successfully booted the OS up to configuring their regular user account. And it should also include, or at least point out another page in the wiki, basic commands such as "su" and/or installing and configuring "sudo" for handling administrative tasks - CodingThoughts 20:58, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
It still covers the whole installation process, it just doesn't make assumptions about what kind of user setup you want. The guide is for all kinds of installs - servers, single-user desktops, multi-user laptops, shared workstations, thin clients, etc.
You definitely don't want to be in any groups like power or audio for a regular desktop install without a special use case. You don't need to be in a single group for using audio, video acceleration, suspending, mounting external drives, etc.
-- thestinger (talk) 02:47, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
Yes, you are completely right, I was assuming stuff. Still, I'm going to add references to su and sudo later on. I don't see how that could hurt the Post-Installation part of the guide. - CodingThoughts 11:39, 17 March 2013 (UTC)
I do remember there used to be one short introduction of sudo in post-installation. I can not recall why it is removed. However, please only add link and short introduction. Duplication of Wiki text is just like duplication of code, both of them make wiki/code harder to maintain. -- Fengchao (talk) 14:37, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
Got it. - CodingThoughts 16:31, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

Wireless Connection

the Wireless Connection section of the beginner's guide makes no mention of wifi-menu at the top (only at the long end), whereas the Installation Guide, supposedly more advanced, says to just run it

Wifi-menu works flawlessly in my experience and just running wifi-menu without any boilerplate is a much easier option than the procedure in the Beginner's Guide; I think the Beginner's Guide should say: "run wifi-menu", followed by a short walkthrough, then "if wifi-menu does not work for you, try the procedure below". --Xananax (talk) 19:16, 7 April 2013 (UTC)