Talk:Core utilities

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Revision as of 10:19, 11 September 2014 by Kynikos (talk | contribs) (→‎Section Reorganization: re, close)
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Section Reorganization

I was thinking of adding descriptions of a few more commands here. Before doing that, i would like to group similar commands together into broad topics. While the current alphabetic ordering is fine if you want to quickly look up a command, i think helpful for beginners if the information is presented in a more structured manner.

I was thinking of using the following structure:

1 directory navigation

2 file manipulation

3 text processing

4 pagers
vim as alternative pager

5 help & search

6 jobs

7 networking

8 security
permissions related utilities

Bwid (talk) 11:35, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

I don't know which and how many commands you'd like to add, but the structure devised like that seems to only overcomplicate the page: groups of 1 or 2 commands don't look very useful (pagers, jobs...), and then some choices seem a bit forced, e.g. I wouldn't put mkdir under directory navigation, or grep under text processing; also the coupling of help & search appears a bit arbitrary, why not have a "help & pagers" group instead (just an example to show the arbitrariness).
Maybe you can expand on the commands you'd like to add, or wait to have some feedback from other users.
-- Kynikos (talk) 06:57, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
Thanks, you make some very good points. I admit my grouping was quickly thrown together, will be thinking about it some more.
About the Commands i was considering, there are 2 Groups. The first is the stuff which could (or should?) be merged from Arch Handbook.
These are: {cd, find, mount, ps, df, kill}. Now, cd is so basic that i'm doubting it even belongs here. It would fit more in an "Introduction to the Shell" type of article, aimed at Beginners. I even not sure if this wiki should present such basic information at all. find is a very powerful command, so a short blurb here can't possible do it justice. But i think it shoud be mentioned, since locate is. For mount, i was thinking of just linking to the Mount article.
The second group is all the other tools which are in GNU coreutils package. There is a lot of stuff in there, some of it pretty obscure, but some of it is quite useful. I linked a reddit post "a sampling of coreutils" at the bottom of the page a while ago. Here is a list of commands which are currently missing: date echo false ln mknod readlink sleep stty sync touch true uname base64 basename chcon cksum comm csplit cut dircolors dirname du env expand expr fmt fold head id install join md5sum mkfifo nice
Bwid (talk) 08:26, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
Considering that cd is just a built-in command of a shell (e.g. Bash), I would also put it somewhere else. Also note that shells may provide a built-in command which supersedes some regular command, for example Bash has built-in pwd which supersedes /usr/bin/pwd.
I don't think that we should describe all coreutils tools "just because", there are some excellent external resources that provide the overview and then manpages provide the detailed info. It is perfectly fine if we make a selection of the most frequently used tools, tools used in everyday life, or tools notable for some other reason. Admittedly, the scope of this page is not very well defined...
I was also thinking about limiting the scope of this page to describing tools from the coreutils package only, otherwise the scope is too wide: coreutils, findutils, moreutils, less, grep, sed, sudo and more standalone packages. But on the other hand, creating a separate wiki page for each standalone package/tool is not a good solution either...
-- Lahwaacz (talk) 09:29, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
I was just thinking about the scope of this article too. It reminds me of Common Applications and Lightweight Applications. Do keep Core utilities, List of applications and List of games or should we organize them in a different manner? We also have Category:Scripts. -- Karol (talk) 11:11, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
@Karol Maybe we'd go too much off rails with that: unless you have some more specific plans to discuss, let's leave those articles as they are.
Regarding the commands to list here, I don't think cd needs to be introduced at all anywhere. sudo and locate can be moved to the related box, as they have their own articles already; shred could be moved to Securely_wipe_disk#shred and linked from the related box too; Core_utilities#Permissions_related_utilities could be merged into File permissions and attributes, and again linked from the related box.
Then we can discuss to limit the commands described here to a list of arbitrarily selected packages in the core repo.
-- Kynikos (talk) 04:56, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
I've moved the sections to Related articles as suggested. All that remains in the Arch Handbook page is a little table with basic commands: Arch Handbook#Basic commands. -- Alad (talk) 14:29, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
Moved the section to Core utilities#Basic commands, and redirected Arch Handbook to General recommendations. Feel free to make the necessary adjustments. -- Alad (talk) 14:45, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
Thank you, I've merged the remaining section on file permissions. Grouping the commands in categories doesn't seem feasible, I'm closing the discussion. -- Kynikos (talk) 10:19, 11 September 2014 (UTC)