Difference between revisions of "Talk:Installation guide"

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== Read this first before add new suggestion ==
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== Read this first before adding new suggestions ==
* Point of this page is to ''not'' become another Beginner's guide. It's meant to be a ''concise'' checklist of things to be done. So detailed install instruction should go to [[Beginners' Guide]].
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* If there is something to discuss which should also affect the Beginner's guide, then do it on [[Talk:Beginners%27_Guide/Installation]]. An advanced user will find this page less bloated and easier to read, so let's KISS.
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== Prominently link to [[Beginners' Guide]] ==
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* The point of this page is to be a ''concise'' checklist of things to be done. Detailed instructions belong in wiki articles or upstream documentation which describe the respective topics.
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* Should you have more complex changes for this guide in mind, create a copy on your user page, and link it here for review.
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* systemd tools such as ''hostnamectl'', ''timedatectl'' and ''localectl'' [https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/798#issuecomment-126568596 do not work] in the installation chroot environment, so please do not propose to use them in the guide unless you can prove that they have been made to work also in that case. See [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Talk:Beginners%27_guide&oldid=388727#General_problems], [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Talk:Beginners%27_guide&oldid=404695#Replace_commands_with_their_systemd_equivalents], [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Talk:Beginners%27_guide&oldid=418662#Utilizing_systemd_tools] and [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Talk:Installation_guide&oldid=434985#change_configuration_system_from_old_way_to_new_way.28using_systemd_commands.29] for some past discussions about this issue.
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* {{ic|localectl list-keymaps}} does not work due to bug {{Bug|46725}}. For the chosen replacement command, see [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Talk:Beginners%27_guide&oldid=435044#localectl].
  
From https://www.archlinux.org new users who want to install Arch are likely to end up here, while for them the [[Beginners' Guide]] is a much better fit. IMHO this should be noted in the introductionary paragraphs. --[[User:Raboof|Raboof]] ([[User talk:Raboof|talk]]) 18:14, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
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-- [[ArchWiki:Administrators|The ArchWiki Administrators]] 12:16, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
:I plan on improving this to the point where that shouldn't be necessary. Feedback on what needs to be added here to fill any gaps would be helpful. It's not going to duplicate high quality pages though. If they're not approachable for beginners it should be fixed there instead of duplicated. [[User:Thestinger|thestinger]] ([[User talk:Thestinger|talk]]) 03:27, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
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__TOC__
  
:Meaning in the future there ''will'' be no beginner's guide? --[[User:Ewtoombs|Ewtoombs]] ([[User talk:Ewtoombs|talk]]) 17:21, 16 March 2013 (UTC)
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== "See ''foo''" vs "See the ''foo'' article" ==
::Well I'm not setting out to delete it, but the purpose of having an entirely separate guide for beginners should begin to fade away. [[User:Thestinger|thestinger]] ([[User talk:Thestinger|talk]]) 09:03, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
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== Change section "Connect to the internet" ==
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:Moved from [[Talk:Beginners' guide]]. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 20:29, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
  
Since the installation guide is now part of the iso image, I'd like to see a few references to the manpages of the necessary tools here, since you cannot open the network related wiki pages. Maybe something like this would be acceptable:
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This revision [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Beginners%27_guide&diff=400266&oldid=400243] added a new mention of "See the ''foo'' article", rather than the more common "See ''foo''". I'd argue former is the better form, and when the guide is viewed from a .txt (if the BG/IG merge completes), the longer wording makes sense as well. Are there opinions against using the longer form throughout the BG? -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 00:13, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
  Assuming a wired ethernet connection, running dhclient or dhcpcd is  
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  sufficient to get a lease. Otherwise set up the connection manually
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  using ip add, wpa_supplicant (WLAN with WPA), pppoe-setup (DSL), etc.
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  You can also create and use netcfg profiles. Read more in the manpages:
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  ip(8), wpa_supplicant(8), pppoe(8), netcfg(8), netcfg-profiles(5)
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A reminder to install the packages for the internet connection in the pacstrap section would also be nice. -- [[User:progandy|progandy]]
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== Suggestions to update this guide as part of ISO ==
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:I'm neutral, so that doesn't count as an opinion against ^^ That said, the long form can only be used with links to entire articles, but more difficultly with links to specific sections such as "See also [[Pacman#pacman crashes the official installation media]]", since in those cases a more natural-sounding long form should be something like "See also the 'pacman crashes the official installation media' section of the [[Pacman]] article", I think, which is clearly ugly to see and use, so consistency is a bit hard to reach. — [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 16:13, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
Since this guide is now being included as 'install.txt' in the ISO, it might be beneficial to incorporate the following changes:
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* Entirely remove the '''1. Download''' section and move it to the Download area of the archlinux.org page. This document here is about installing, not downloading, checking, burning discs or dd'ing. The majority of users reading this have likely already booted up the install medium.
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* Begin or end the document by mentioning the new archlinux(7) man page which explains the location of important system configuration files
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# man archlinux
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* Slightly expand the '''6. Connect to the internet''' section to include the most basic examples of setting up a private network using a dynamic and static IP address. (Right now it's only a single paragraph/line.) It's a vital installation step and should actually be moved to the top as one of the first actions during system setup. This fact should be emphasized.
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Obtain dynamic IP
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::I guess the proper solution would be to incorporate links in the article text where possible. "See X" gets repetitive fast, anyway. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 14:44, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
# dhcpcd
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Set static IP
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== pacman-key --populate ==
# ip link set dev eth0 up
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# ip addr add 192.168.1.2/24 dev eth0
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# ip route add default via 192.168.1.1
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# echo "nameserver 8.8.8.8" >> /etc/resolv.conf
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--[[User:MajorTom|MajorTom]]
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:Moved from [[Talk:Beginners' guide]]. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 20:38, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
  
:* I can agree to all your suggestions, I wonder why no one is modifying the wiki. Internet connection setup is the most important part and should be covered more extensively. In addition to your changes, mention the manpages and configuration templates for netcfg and pppoe-setup/connect. The boot medium must at least contain easy accesible information in order to read all pages referenced in the installation guide. There should also be mentioned that elinks is installed and can be used to access the wiki. --[[User:Progandy|Progandy]] ([[User talk:Progandy|talk]]) 21:50, 24 August 2012 (UTC)
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Reference: https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Beginners%27_guide&diff=next&oldid=411670
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I tried to install Archlinux on my new computer and got stuck. Only using the {{ic|pacman-key --populate archlinux}} helped me. I think I am not the only one having this problem. But why did you undo it? {{Unsigned|20:38, 12 December 2015‎|Sandstorm}}
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:This command is already run for the new system (by installation of archlinux-keyring), so running it by hand shouldn't be required for most users. Of course, things can go wrong (how old was the ISO you used to install the system?), but that belongs in Troubleshooting sections of the respective articles, which are linked at the beginning of the guide. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 19:52, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
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::I had downloaded the ISO just yesterday, minutes before the install. Only that command installed the keys. Probably I should open a bug if you can confirm the issue?
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:::Did you have to run pacman-key after, or before pacstrap? And do you recall what the error messages said exactly? (See also {{Bug|31286}}) -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 20:15, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
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::::I had to run after pacstrap. As far as I remember, pacstrap stopped after trying to download the keys. The error message was something like shown in this forum post: https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=165367
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:::::Well then, as you suggested, I'd open a bug report. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 20:34, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
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::::::Done. Could you check if the description is good. I could not find an appropriate category, so I though Packages:Core might be the closest one. https://bugs.archlinux.org/task/47351 --[[User:Sandstorm|Sandstorm]] ([[User talk:Sandstorm|talk]]) 20:48, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
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:::::::Thanks, the description looks OK. If the category e.a is not right, [[Special:Contributions/Scimmia|User:Scimmia]] should fix it. :P -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 13:59, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
  
:* The {{ic|dhcpcd}} network daemon is started automatically: [https://www.archlinux.org/news/install-media-20120804-available/], [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Beginners%27_Guide#Network_setup], so there's no reason to start it manually. --[[User:DSpider|DSpider]] ([[User talk:DSpider|talk]]) 08:17, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
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::::::::Hmm, looks like it was closed with "Works for me" ... not very enlightening. All I can suggest is to further improve on [[Pacman/Package signing]] and related articles, and recheck if they're accessible enough from the Beginners' guide. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 21:59, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
  
== <s> Keymaps </s> ==
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== timesyncd: add manual date ==
  
As this guide mentions the loading of keymaps using loadkeys there should be at least a very small example about /etc/vconsole.conf
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:Moved from [[Talk:Beginners' guide]]. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 20:44, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
  
Either not talk about keymaps or tell how to make it correct. When this is used as a checklist, the setup of the keymap should not be missing.
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While the right time isn't as important in the live system as in the installed one, it may still be unexpected to users [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Beginners%27_guide&diff=432465&oldid=431268]. We could instead instruct to specify a date explicitly to timedatectl. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 11:25, 6 July 2016 (UTC)
: [[KEYMAP]] page link added. Close. -- [[User:Fengchao|Fengchao]] ([[User talk:Fengchao|talk]]) 04:03, 4 September 2012 (UTC)
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:: The section on keymaps and fonts links only to the KEYMAP page. An additional link regarding setting default console font should be added to:
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:Is the issue setting the time manually or just setting the time zone? The change you linked to just had setting the time zone. -- [[User:Rdeckard|Rdeckard]] ([[User_talk:Rdeckard|talk]]) 01:29, 9 July 2016 (UTC)
https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Fonts#Console_fonts
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: Link updated. Thanks for suggestion. -- [[User:Fengchao|Fengchao]] ([[User talk:Fengchao|talk]]) 13:47, 18 May 2013 (UTC)
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== add a step: setting the clock ==
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::Well, with setting it manually you'd kill two birds with one stone. The time would be what users expect, but without adding an extra step of little consequence. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 18:35, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
  
Lots of things care about the clock being more-or-less correct, e.g. pacman-key will not work at all if the clock is too far out. Lots of brand new computers come with the clock set to something in the distant past, which causes weird problems during the install. [[User:Thetrivialstuff|Thetrivialstuff]] ([[User talk:Thetrivialstuff|talk]]) 23:14, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
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== <s>BG merge</s> ==
  
I agree, the instructions in "Installation Guide" leaves you without a /etc/adjtime file.
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Progress on [[Talk:Beginners'_guide#The_Great_Merge]] is below. Note that content is not copied literally from the BG, but kept in the style and spirit of the IG. This keeps a clear overview of the various steps; if more detailed instructions are required, these belong in dedicated articles. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 23:32, 9 July 2016 (UTC)
The following should be added (taken from beginners guide, but shortened):
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Set the hardware clock and generate a {{ic|/etc/adjtime}} file with {{ic|# hwclock --systohc --utc}} or {{ic|# hwclock --systohc --localtime}}
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[[User:Bwid|Bwid]] ([[User talk:Bwid|talk]]) 08:03, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
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:There's no need for an adjtime file, but it does make sense to have people use {{ic|timedatectl}} from the live media to set the clock correctly. -- [[User:Thestinger|thestinger]] ([[User talk:Thestinger|talk]]) 03:30, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
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== pacman-key --init / populate? ==
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:The merge is done. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 11:30, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
  
Isn't this a required step? pacstrap does not seem to do it on its own. [[User:Thetrivialstuff|Thetrivialstuff]] ([[User talk:Thetrivialstuff|talk]]) 23:15, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
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::Well, I thought this was too big of a change not to take this chance to thank you and all those who contributed to discussing and implementing this task during the past ''years''!! — [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 11:05, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
:Edit: Ah; I think this was related to the "set the clock" step -- I see that there is a pacman keyring init in the boot sequence of the latest media, but it (silently?) fails if the local clock is wrong.
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::https://mailman.archlinux.org/pipermail/arch-releng/2012-July/002708.html --[[User:Bluewind|Bluewind]] ([[User talk:Bluewind|talk]]) 09:10, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
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== Link to UEFI Bootloaders page ==
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=== <s>Sections</s> ===
  
Instead of telling the user to install GRUB(2) alone in case of UEFI, direct the reader to the [[UEFI_Bootloaders]] page which provides info about all the UEFI bootloaders capable of booting linux kernel. Also how can I edit the guide, there is no "edit" tab shown on top of the page. Is this page restricted to few authors only? -- [[User:The.ridikulus.rat|Keshav P R]] ([[User talk:The.ridikulus.rat|talk]]) 15:31, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
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:: Introduction [✔]
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# Preparation
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## UEFI mode [✔]
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## Set the keyboard layout [✔]
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## Connect to the internet [✔]
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## Update the system clock []
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# Prepare the storage devices
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## Identify the devices [✔]
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## Partition the devices [✔]
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## Format the partitions [✔]
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## Mount the partitions [✔]
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# Installation
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## Select the mirrors []
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## Install the base packages [✔]
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# Configuration
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## fstab [✔]
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## Change root []
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## Locale [✔]
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## Time [✔]
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## Initramfs [✔]
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## Boot loader [✔]
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## Network configuration [✔]
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### Hostname [✔]
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### Wired [✔]
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### Wireless [✔]
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## Root password [✔]
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# Unmount the partitions and reboot [✔]
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# Post-installation [✔]
  
==Styling==
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== Switch to systemd-networkd ==
  
* The "'''Install a bootloader'''" section should be a bullet point above "Configure the bootloader: refer back to the appropriate ...", no need to have them separate. Using pacstrap to install the bootloader just seems silly (especially since they were also merged in the Beginner's Guide). Also, commands after {{ic|arch-chroot}} would look better if they were indented with "<nowiki>: {{bc|# <command>}}</nowiki>", kinda like how {{ic|# pacman-key -v <iso-file>.sig}} is at the beginning of the article. Would look much cleaner. --[[User:DSpider|DSpider]] ([[User talk:DSpider|talk]]) 16:33, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
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Next ISOs may use systemd-networkd instead of dhcpcd, see [https://lists.archlinux.org/pipermail/arch-releng/2016-July/003739.html] -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 10:26, 19 July 2016 (UTC)
  
:I agree that Install a Bootloader should be above Configure the Bootloader. As for the thing with pacstrap installing the bootloader, that must have already been changed, since I didn't find that anywhere. --[[User:Ewtoombs|Ewtoombs]] ([[User talk:Ewtoombs|talk]]) 17:27, 16 March 2013 (UTC)
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== Dual-boot with windows ==
  
==Proposed changes to Beginners' Guide and link to Post-Installation==
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In the [[Beginners' guide]], this is mentioned in [[Beginners'_guide#Format_the_partitions]], but perhaps this should be linked earlier, e.g. in [[Installation guide#Pre-installation]]. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 12:08, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
Some major changes are under discussion in [[Talk:Beginners'_Guide#Guide_restructuring]]: some of them would require adjustments to this very guide, see for example [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Talk%3ABeginners%27_Guide&diff=224578&oldid=224567 this post].
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Please reply in the linked discussion, '''not''' here.
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:What about [[Installation_guide#Partition_the_disks]]? — [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 09:51, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
  
-- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 12:15, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
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== The Great Merge ==
  
:I've added the steps in [[Beginners' Guide/Post-Installation]] to this guide, which now directly sends users to [[Beginners' Guide/Extra]].
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:''[Moved from [[Talk:Beginners' guide]]. [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 11:11, 24 August 2016 (UTC)]''
:If however [[Talk:Beginners' Guide#Guide restructuring]] will be implemented as planned, the [[Beginners' Guide]] will have a slightly different installation procedure than this guide, unless this one is updated too.
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:-- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 14:08, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
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::Shouldn't the information be added ''before'' "Unmount leftovers and reboot" ? By the way, the title should mention rebooting, because most likely a kernel update was involved. --[[User:DSpider|DSpider]] ([[User talk:DSpider|talk]]) 14:41, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
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[[#Plan]] reaches closure, and the [[Beginners' guide]] is now comparable in size to the [[Installation guide]]. "Cleanup day" [https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=214373] would be a good time to start the merge of both guides, and replace the Beginners' guide, together with translations on this domain, to redirections to the [[Installation guide]].
  
:::The link to Post-Installation was the last step of the guide, so that's the line I've replaced with the instructions from Post-Installation.
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It would be preferable if before then, a TU or dev also brings this up on arch-dev-public for input from the developers, also regarding [[#Page protection]]. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 14:25, 5 July 2016 (UTC)
:::About rebooting in case of a kernel upgrade, I don't think it's necessary to state that since this guide is aimed at experienced users.
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:::In any case, any reordering or modification of the various steps should better be approved by a Developer, and probably the forum or the mailing lists are better places than this talk page to involve them in such discussions.
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:::-- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 14:59, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
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::::Yeah, but at this point, you were instructed to reboot. In order to edit {{ic|pacman.conf}}, you need to mount the root partition. And to update your system, you need to chroot into it. It would be better if "Unmount leftovers" was renamed "Unmount leftovers and reboot", and added at the end (before the suggestion to read the instructions from '''Extra'''). --[[User:DSpider|DSpider]] ([[User talk:DSpider|talk]]) 15:07, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
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:I agree with extending the redirection to the translations, with the exception of 4 which are actively maintained or have been retranslated recently, so I've flagged them to see if their maintainers want to deal with the merge on their own: [[Beginners' guide (العربية)]], [[Beginners' guide (Español)]], [[Beginners' guide (Русский)]] and [[Beginners' guide (简体中文)]]. [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 10:58, 6 July 2016 (UTC)
  
:::::You are still instructed to reboot, aren't you? The "Unmount leftovers" section currently tells you to ''"reboot and then login into the new system with the root account"''. In the "new system", the correct partition is already mounted at /.
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:: I will take care of [[Beginners' guide (简体中文)]]. --[[User:Fengchao|Fengchao]] ([[User talk:Fengchao|talk]]) 06:21, 7 July 2016 (UTC)
:::::Whether or not configuring pacman, updating the system and adding a user would be better done in the chroot before rebooting, it's something that should be discussed with a Developer. I too think that it would make more sense, requiring one less reboot in case of a kernel upgrade.
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:::::-- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 15:18, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
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:::::Renaming "Unmount leftovers" to "Unmount leftovers and reboot" is safe anyway, so I've done that. -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 15:37, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
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:::::@DSpider: you're quite active on the forum, why don't you propose your idea there? I think it would be interesting to discuss it. -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 14:11, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
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:::::Ok, after reading [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Talk%3AInstallation_Guide&diff=226203&oldid=225070 this] I realize that maybe I haven't been clear enough, so I'll try to explain everything more thoroughly.
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:::::#The current procedure makes you [[Installation_Guide#Configure_the_system|configure the system]] in the '''chroot''' environment from the '''live''' system.
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:::::#Then, still in the '''live''' system, it [[Installation_Guide#Unmount and reboot|asks]] you to '''exit''' the chroot, unmount the partitions for the '''new''' system, '''reboot''' and login into the '''new''' system. Now, I refuse to write more explicitly in the guide that you should boot into the '''new''' system, and not again in the '''live''' system, in order to login into the new system.
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:::::#Since you are now into the '''new''' system ('''not''' the live system), the root partition is mounted at {{ic|/}}, not at {{ic|/mnt/}}, so you should be able to configure pacman, update the system and add a user wihtout chrooting. Now, if you've tested the procedure and really noticed that for some obscure-to-me reason you still need to chroot to /mnt in order to do those operations, please ask for clarifications in the forum because I wouldn't be able to answer any more.
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:::::Last thing, and I think this is the 3rd or 4th time I write it, I '''agree''' with you that configuring pacman etc. could easily be done in the chroot environment at step 1, but you should '''propose''' that change '''in the forum''' first, since it would be a change in the official installation procedure and I won't take responsibility for that.
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:::::I think this is the best I can do here, the next step to explain all this could be making a movie or a five-act play, but I hope it's not necessary :)
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:::::-- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 05:56, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
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== "Configure the network" is missing ==
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::: Note that typically content is rewritten in the [[Installation guide]], rather than taken literally from the [[Beginners' guide]] (see [[Talk:Installation_guide#BG_merge]]), so my suggestion is to focus translation efforts on the Installation guide, rather than the Beginners' guide. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 17:44, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
  
Basically, you establish an internet connection, but you also need to configure the network, so that you can connect after rebooting. The Beginners' Guide [[Beginners'_Guide#Configure_the_network|mentions]] it: ''You need to configure the network again, but this time for your newly installed environment. The procedure and prerequisites are very similar to the one described above, except we are going to make it persistent and automatically run at boot.'' And this information seems to be missing from the installation guide. --[[User:DSpider|DSpider]] ([[User talk:DSpider|talk]]) 13:51, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
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::: I've redirected all translations apart from the above. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 18:50, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
  
:I don't think that any Developer is watching this talk page, you'd better report this in the forum or mailing list. -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 10:43, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
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::::There are still some pages left: [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Special%3APrefixIndex&prefix=Beginners%27+Guide&namespace=0&hideredirects=1] -- [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 07:13, 14 July 2016 (UTC)
  
::I'm not sure if this should be a part of the installation guide. -- [[User:Karol|Karol]] ([[User talk:Karol|talk]]) 15:20, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
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:::::I've just handled those, but there's more to do at [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Special%3APrefixIndex&prefix=begin&namespace=10]. [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 10:38, 14 July 2016 (UTC)
  
:::Of course it should. Because after rebooting (which you are instructed to), you're left with a borked machine. You need to boot the installation media again, establish an internet connection, mount the partitions and chroot into your system, and only THEN install the required packages. There should at least be a line that mentions [[netcfg]]. Because I read that it can handle both wired and wireless connections, and it's included in {{Grp|base}} now. --[[User:DSpider|DSpider]] ([[User talk:DSpider|talk]]) 07:04, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
+
::::::What's the point of redirecting templates to regular pages? [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Template:Beginners%27_Guide_navigation_(Dansk)&curid=10983&diff=441462&oldid=387477] [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 07:59, 15 July 2016 (UTC)
::::I'm sorry if I'm missing something, but there is [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Installation_Guide#Connect_to_the_internet a line about netcfg already] and was there a month ago when this discussion was started. If you want to add a note that after rebooting the user has to enable dhcpcd service etc. (so he should have all the needed packages installed beforehand) that's fine with me. -- [[User:Karol|Karol]] ([[User talk:Karol|talk]]) 10:09, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
+
  
== Install a bootloader ==
+
:::::::We were discussing that in [[ArchWiki_talk:Administrators#How_to_archive_templates]], we had a half-baked solution, maybe we should just put it to the vote. — [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 14:28, 16 July 2016 (UTC)
  
Make it more visible that it is a choise between Grub/Syslinux.
+
::::::::Oops, 154 days and still no reply from me, sorry about that... Thanks for your patience and strong nerves for the future, because unfortunately it's far from being the worst case of my this-year-maybe discussions :P
 +
::::::::In this case, I'd say that the templates can be simply deleted: it's fairly trivial transclusion of one &lt;div> and a couple of links, without any MediaWiki hacks, which can be recreated any time if needed. There is also pretty low probability that beginners' guides will be allowed in the near (less than 10 years) future in general, let alone split across multiple pages requiring navigational template. And if it's needed sometime in the next century, they will most likely have something better than MediaWiki's obscure template syntax.
 +
::::::::-- [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 15:13, 16 July 2016 (UTC)
  
== <s> 2 amendments to do </s> ==
+
:::::::::These redirected templates are a very marginal problem IMO, I don't mind if they stay as redirects or are deleted, but only because the fact that [[ArchWiki_talk:Administrators#How_to_archive_templates]] is still open justifies deciding case by case for the moment. Note that as redirects they don't pollute [[Special:UnusedTemplates]]. I wouldn't like to promote deletion as the official default template archiving method though, but I agree with delaying the resolution of that discussion, there are other priorities right now. — [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 13:57, 18 July 2016 (UTC)
  
In '''Configure the system''':
+
::::::::::So I've taken the chance and deleted the BG navigation templates. Let's wait for [[ArchWiki_talk:Administrators#How_to_archive_templates]] with the general decision, hopefully this year... -- [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 18:06, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
  
There is only one link on
+
=== Main page link ===
    ''Add console keymap and font preferences in /etc/vconsole.conf''
+
This link should apply only to "console keymap".<br>
+
"font preferences" should link to [[Fonts#Console_fonts]]
+
: Link updated. Thanks. -- [[User:Fengchao|Fengchao]] ([[User talk:Fengchao|talk]]) 13:46, 18 May 2013 (UTC)
+
  
There is also:
+
Before redirecting we have to decide at least how to rebalance the links in the [[Main page]]: what about also removing the [[Arch Linux press coverage]] link from the left colum? That article is pretty much unmaintained anyway, we can give it more backlinks from somewhere else. — [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 11:04, 6 July 2016 (UTC)
    ''Uncomment the selected locale in /etc/locale.gen and generate it with locale-gen.''
+
This should be removed as it has been already done during this step:
+
    ''Set locale preferences in /etc/locale.conf.''
+
  
Thanks and regards,
+
:+1 from me -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 11:30, 6 July 2016 (UTC)
[[User:Boism|Boism]] ([[User talk:Boism|talk]]) 21:10, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
+
: They are not the same. First generate locale than set default locale. See [[Locale]] for more info. -- [[User:Fengchao|Fengchao]] ([[User talk:Fengchao|talk]]) 13:46, 18 May 2013 (UTC)
+
  
== Mount the partitions ==
+
Let's not forget that we must also patch [https://git.archlinux.org/archweb.git/tree/templates/public/index.html#n116 the main home page]. — [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 10:14, 13 July 2016 (UTC)
  
Please also mention that if using a swap partition the user should execute swapon at the "Mount to partitions" step. It is important to do this so that the swap partition is included when generating the fstab later on in the guide.--[[User:Takaitra|Takaitra]] ([[User talk:Takaitra|talk]]) 17:13, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
+
:https://lists.archlinux.org/pipermail/arch-projects/2016-August/004400.html -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 05:46, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
  
== add netctl to the mentioned ways of configuring network ==
+
=== Translations ===
  
Since netctl is on it's way to replace netcfg we should at least mention its existance in the appropriate section.
+
The translations of the [[Main page]] should be updated along with the English page. Also the [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Special:WhatLinksHere/Beginners%27_guide_(%E6%AD%A3%E9%AB%94%E4%B8%AD%E6%96%87) backlinks] of the BG translations should be cleaned as much as possible, as that might be somewhat [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Beginners%27_guide_(%E6%AD%A3%E9%AB%94%E4%B8%AD%E6%96%87)&diff=443707&oldid=443682 confusing] for future translators. -- [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 11:45, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
:Not until it's out of [testing]. -- [[User:Thestinger|thestinger]] ([[User talk:Thestinger|talk]]) 03:28, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
+
::It's out of testing and in core/base. [[User:Scimmia|Scimmia]] ([[User talk:Scimmia|talk]]) 23:08, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
+
  
== Add link to usb installation media ==
+
:Oh jolly... can we automate this with a bot somehow? -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 18:12, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
  
Can you add a link to [[USB Installation Media|written to a USB]]   on:
+
::I haven't been doing any natural language processing yet, but if you feel like teaching my bot Chinese, please help yourself :)
 +
::Just kidding, I could probably make some semi-automatic assistant to at least quickly find and mark the links and open vimdiff for manual editing.
 +
::-- [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 18:23, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
  
''The image can be burned to a CD, mounted as an ISO file, or directly written to a USB stick using a utility like dd. It is intended for new installations only; an existing Arch Linux system can always be updated with pacman -Syu.''
+
:::I've fixed most of the backlinks to the english article, as well as the translated [[Main page]] articles. For the backlinks to translations I could definitely use the help of an assistant. :P -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 00:35, 27 August 2016 (UTC)
  
please?
+
== Clarifications ==
  
== <s> rewrite "stacked block devices" sentence </s> ==
+
=== General ===
  
The sentence
+
I would also say the biggest pain points are the partitioning, filesystem and mount sections --[[User:Alexendoo|Alexendoo]] ([[User talk:Alexendoo|talk]]) 12:28, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
:Remember to create any stacked block devices like [[LVM]], [[dm-crypt with LUKS|LUKS]], or [[RAID]].
+
makes it sound like it's necessary to create such block devices. I think this could be formulated better as:
+
:If you want to create any stacked block devices like [[LVM]], [[dm-crypt with LUKS|LUKS]], or [[RAID]], do it now.
+
  
(No comment on the philosophy of a wiki that doesn't allow editing.) <nowiki>~~</nowiki> [[User:RavuAlHemio|RavuAlHemio]] ([[User talk:Ravu al Hemio|talk]]) 14:32, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
+
=== <s>Verify the boot mode</s> ===
:I think the whole Installation section has to be thrown out and replaced with a heavily edited version from the Beginners' Guide - it's quite bad right now. By the way it's just this page and a few others that are protected. This is regarded as the official documentation for the installation procedure. It should really be regularly updated from the community-maintained Beginners' Guide but I haven't had the time for it lately. [[User:Thestinger|thestinger]] ([[User talk:Thestinger|talk]]) 03:06, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
+
:: Updated for now. Thanks for the suggestion. Close. -- [[User:Fengchao|Fengchao]] ([[User talk:Fengchao|talk]]) 13:23, 18 May 2013 (UTC)
+
  
== <s> pacstrap links obsolete repo </s> ==
+
Verify the boot mode tells you to check efivars but doesn't give the expected output (if none, no UEFI) -- [https://www.reddit.com/r/archlinux/comments/4z7z0i/the_beginners_guide_has_been_removed_from_the_wiki/d6ui70e /u/youguess]
  
The pacstrap word links to the obsolete github repo https://github.com/falconindy/arch-install-scripts
+
:Via [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Installation_guide&type=revision&diff=448631&oldid=448623]. Note that it explicitely mentions "does not exist" rather than none/empty; see [https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1047904#c12] and following. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 18:48, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
  
The current repos seems to be this one: https://projects.archlinux.org/arch-install-scripts.git/ and the link to pacstrap is https://projects.archlinux.org/arch-install-scripts.git/tree/pacstrap.in
+
=== Connect to the Internet ===
  
[[User:Kolewu|Kolewu]] ([[User talk:Kolewu|talk]]) 23:12, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
+
"For other network configuration, ..." is badly worded
: Link updated. Thanks for reporting. -- [[User:Fengchao|Fengchao]] ([[User talk:Fengchao|talk]]) 13:15, 18 May 2013 (UTC)
+
 
 +
:Reworded with [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Installation_guide&diff=447853&oldid=447850] -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 19:03, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
There is no mention of wireless networks
 +
 
 +
--[[User:Alexendoo|Alexendoo]] ([[User talk:Alexendoo|talk]]) 12:28, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
Why are both [[Systemd-networkd]] and [[netctl]] wiki pages and man pages both mentioned like this?: "If a different [[network configuration]] tool is needed, [[systemd-networkd]] and [[netctl]] are available. See systemd.network(5) and netctl.profile(5) for examples." The man pages should be mentioned in those respective wiki pages. The section should rewritten as: "If a different [[network configuration]] tool is needed, see either [[systemd-networkd]] or [[netctl]] for details." [[User:H0x0d|H0x0d]] ([[User talk:H0x0d|talk]]) 14:27, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:I'm not sure why there's an aversion to linking these man pages; both include direct examples on networkd/netctl usage. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 19:02, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
Connect to the internet, maybe direct link to wireless? [https://www.reddit.com/r/archlinux/comments/4z7z0i/the_beginners_guide_has_been_removed_from_the_wiki/d6ui70e /u/youguess]
 +
 
 +
=== Partition the disks ===
 +
 
 +
A section on how to identify the devices is completely missing
 +
 
 +
The old page provided a very succinct introduction to partitioning, clear examples as well as appropriate warnings that data loss will incur if used incorrectly
 +
 
 +
The new page provides none of that, rather linking to many separate pages not as extra information or for less common use cases as is common in the Beginners' guide but rather as the only way to accomplish the task, it never actually answers the question "What do I need to do?"
 +
 
 +
--[[User:Alexendoo|Alexendoo]] ([[User talk:Alexendoo|talk]]) 12:28, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
=== Format the partitions ===
 +
 
 +
Similar story again, the new guide fails to answer the question "What do I need to do?", it abstracts away to the page on filesystem article that bombards a new user with 16 different filesystems instead of the common case the beginners guide provided: it mentioned explicitly it's recommended to use ext4
 +
 
 +
--[[User:Alexendoo|Alexendoo]] ([[User talk:Alexendoo|talk]]) 12:28, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
=== Mount the partitions ===
 +
 
 +
Instead of providing two short examples the user is asked to read the manpage for mount, for a beginner this is pretty unnecessary. They're then told to create directories but not told how
 +
 
 +
--[[User:Alexendoo|Alexendoo]] ([[User talk:Alexendoo|talk]]) 12:28, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
: Regarding "mount" I think we should link to [[Mount]] from the installation guide and then we can link to the manpage from there. -- [[User:Rdeckard|Rdeckard]] ([[User_talk:Rdeckard|talk]]) 12:31, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
::Ok, though we should make some edits to the [[mount]] article. It's structured oddly, e.g the first section is a convoluted zgrep line.
 +
::For the examples, the main reason I've left them out is because the Beginners' guide used a horrid "/dev/sdxy, where x is ... and y ..." scheme. Though if you're following along, it should be pretty clear what a command like {{ic|mount ''/dev/sda1'' /mnt}} means. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 13:32, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
Mount the partion was easier to follow in the beginners guide, what I kind of miss is the explicit command example of first creating and then mounting a subdir of root (yes I know that it should be clear how to do that, but it wasn't for me at first before I read about what chrooting does) -- [https://www.reddit.com/r/archlinux/comments/4z7z0i/the_beginners_guide_has_been_removed_from_the_wiki/d6ui70e /u/youguess]
 +
 
 +
:I also wonder on the sentence "If you want ''them'' to be detected by genfstab". {{ic|/boot}} will have to be mounted either way to write the kernel to the boot partition, for example. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 18:52, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
=== <s>Fstab</s> ===
 +
 
 +
Minor but I would think it's generally preferable to use -U as in the Beginners' guide since new users probably won't alter the command themselves
 +
 
 +
--[[User:Alexendoo|Alexendoo]] ([[User talk:Alexendoo|talk]]) 12:28, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:Via [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Installation_guide&diff=447912&oldid=447904] -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 16:17, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
=== <s>Time Zone</s> ===
 +
 
 +
"other operating systems should be configured accordingly." - Why/How?
 +
 
 +
--[[User:Alexendoo|Alexendoo]] ([[User talk:Alexendoo|talk]]) 12:28, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:If you follow the link to [[time standard]], you'll see why and how. That's about as much as the installation guide can contain on this topic. -- [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 13:50, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
::I wonder if using a wording like "See [[time standard]] for details" is more clear after all. cf. [[#.22See_foo.22_vs_.22See_the_foo_article.22]] -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 14:02, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
::: Yes I agree. It's similar to the hostname section I commented on below. The whole article needs to make it clear that clicking on certain links will show the user on how to accomplish a task, vs simply giving more insight on something. [[User:H0x0d|H0x0d]] ([[User talk:H0x0d|talk]]) 14:09, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
::::This is completely fine and natural, the proposed alternative ("If the time standard is set to UTC, other operating systems should be configured accordingly. See [[time standard]] for details.") is overly repetitive. Unlike other media, on ArchWiki there are links incorporated into the text not to be ignored, but followed, if not already known to the reader. We're giving the reader a hint, it's up to them how they handle it. -- [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 14:39, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
::::: Overly repetitive is better than being unclear, when it comes to a guide like this. If you don't want to repeat the phrases "see details", then it should be at least written like this: "If the time standard is set to UTC, other operating systems should be [[time standard|configured accordingly]]." [[User:H0x0d|H0x0d]] ([[User talk:H0x0d|talk]]) 14:47, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
::::::Alright, [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Installation_guide&diff=447902&oldid=447900 changed]. -- [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 15:05, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
=== <s>Locale</s> ===
 +
 
 +
If a user doesn't know what they are yet, they may not know which are needed
 +
 
 +
--[[User:Alexendoo|Alexendoo]] ([[User talk:Alexendoo|talk]]) 12:28, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:The Beginners' guide had a sentence on the definition on the word "locale", but otherwise equally went on about "needed" locales. The [[locale]] page also isn't very clear about this:
 +
::The locales that can be generated are listed in the {{ic|/etc/locale.gen}} file: their names are defined using the format [language][_TERRITORY][.CODESET][@modifier]
 +
:{{man|3|setlocale}} has some more information:
 +
::A locale name is typically of the form language[_territory][.codeset][@modifier], where language is an ISO 639 language code, territory is an ISO 3166 country code, and codeset is a character set or encoding identifier like ISO-8859-1 or UTF-8. For a list of all supported locales, try "locale -a", cf. locale(1).
 +
:If the "Add {{ic|1=LANG=''your_locale''}} to {{man|5|locale.conf}}" part isn't clear enough, I'd add something like "where {{ic|''your_locale''}} is an entry listed in {{ic|localedef --list-archive}}. More elegant/reliable than the "first column of foo" stuff. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 03:07, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
::[https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Installation_guide&curid=14801&diff=447967&oldid=447926] and [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Locale&type=revision&diff=447965&oldid=447441] should make things clearer. The "needed" wording is still there, but I don't know of a good replacement without copying [[Locale]] verbatim. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 04:41, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:::[https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Installation_guide&diff=448071&oldid=448069] mentions to uncomment {{ic|en_US}} explicitely, also to assist with [[Code_of_conduct#Pasting_pictures_and_code]]. Closing, feel free to reopen if you have more suggestions. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 14:53, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
=== <s>Hostname</s> ===
 +
 
 +
Again needing to read manpages instead of a short example
 +
 
 +
--[[User:Alexendoo|Alexendoo]] ([[User talk:Alexendoo|talk]]) 12:28, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:There is a link to [[hostname]], we won't duplicate its content here. Closing. -- [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 13:46, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
::Well, a single code line {{ic|# echo myhostname > /etc/hostname}} wouldn't hurt, as [[hostname]] first mentions ''hostnamectl'', only to then mention it doesn't work in the installation environment and that you should [[edit]] {{ic|/etc/hostname}}. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 14:06, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:::That's a good point. I'll leave it up to you to add it to the [[Installation guide]] or [[Network configuration]]. -- [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 14:48, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
::::Via [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Network_configuration&type=revision&diff=447899&oldid=447877] and [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Installation_guide&diff=447900&oldid=447890] -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 15:04, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:::::The line {{ic|#echo myhostname > /etc/hosts}} needs to be corrected to /etc/hostname. --[[User:Deadrabbit|Deadrabbit]] ([[User talk:Deadrabbit|talk]]) 17:52, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
::::::Thanks, corrected. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 18:15, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
[[Network configuration]] covers setting the hostname in better detail than the Hostname section, perhaps it can be just covered there instead of in the install guide also.
 +
 
 +
--[[User:Alexendoo|Alexendoo]] ([[User talk:Alexendoo|talk]]) 12:28, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:The [[Installation_guide#Hostname]] section already contains little more than the link to [[hostname]] (redirects to [[Network configuration#Set the hostname]]), so I'd say it's pretty much "covered there". Do you suggest to remove the section completely? -- [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 13:45, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:: However that link isn't worded in a way that makes it obvious that following that link would show one how to set the hostname. It should said like this: "Create an entry for your hostname in /etc/hostname and /etc/hosts. See [[Network configuration#Set the hostname]] for example on how to set the hostname." There's no need to mention the hostname or hostnamectl man pages in the Installation Guide as they are already covered in the [[Network configuration#Set the hostname]] section. [[User:H0x0d|H0x0d]] ([[User talk:H0x0d|talk]]) 13:55, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
::: This should be covered by the edits above -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 16:14, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
=== <s>hostname redirect</s> ===
 +
 
 +
With [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Installation_guide&diff=447904&oldid=447902] we've dropped the redirect to [[hostname]], because the target is linked in the paragraph after that. This is different from the surrounding sections, which link the term when it is first mentioned.
 +
 
 +
A workaround would be e.g. "Create an entry for the {{man|7|hostname}}", though we could instead consider moving [[Network_configuration#Local_network_hostname_resolution]] below [[Network_configuration#Set_the_hostname]]. The two sections are directly related, and we could remove some duplicated content in the process. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 19:42, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:Should be covered by [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Installation_guide&diff=448554&oldid=448079] and [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Network_configuration&diff=448546&oldid=448544] -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 02:32, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
=== Initramfs ===
 +
 
 +
It's not mentioned that most users don't need to worry about this section
 +
 
 +
--[[User:Alexendoo|Alexendoo]] ([[User talk:Alexendoo|talk]]) 12:28, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
Initramfs, maybe add some examples like "eg encrypting/btrfs hook" so that beginners know what it is for? -- [https://www.reddit.com/r/archlinux/comments/4z7z0i/the_beginners_guide_has_been_removed_from_the_wiki/d6ui70e /u/youguess]
 +
: I'm not sure how to best word this. [[Installation_guide#Partition_the_disks]] mentions:
 +
:: If wanting to create any stacked block devices for LVM, disk encryption or RAID, do it now.
 +
: and each of those articles mention you need to edit {{ic|mkinitcpio.conf}} already. "When" may be an unfortunate wording, however - since this step is indeed optional. <s>See also [[#Initramfs]].</s> -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 18:34, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
=== Elinks ===
 +
 
 +
[[w:Virtual console]] usage is probably too basic/essential to keep as a Tip on the [[elinks]] page. It should be mentioned in the introduction or [[Installation guide#Pre-installation]] instead. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 19:10, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
=== Small suggestion ===
 +
 
 +
I think in [[Installation guide#Partition the disks|Partition the disks]] section should be also mentioned ''cfdisk'' as its much easier for beginners and in [[Installation guide#Install the base packages|Install the base packages]] section should be also mentioned ''base-devel'' package group. --[[User:Conder|Conder]] ([[User talk:Conder|talk]]) 15:44, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:Whether cfdisk is easier for beginners depends on the person using it; for instance, someone on IRC was installing Arch for the first time and found the menu-based approach of gdisk more straightforward than the "GUI" of cgdisk. That said, we might as well link to the man page.
 +
:For base-devel, see [[#Let.27s_mention_filesystem_tools_in_pacstrap_step]]. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 17:17, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
::We might as well link to the [[fdisk]] page instead, which covers all 6 tools; cf. [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Help_talk:Style&diff=443278&oldid=443277]. -- [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 17:44, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:::Okay, though the article mentions "This article covers fdisk and its related sfdisk and cfdisk utilities, as well as the analogous gdisk, sgdisk and cgdisk utilities" but misses the promised cfdisk/cgdisk sections. I guess there's not that much to explain anyway, cf. {{man|8|cfdisk}} "Note that cfdisk provides basic partitioning functionality with a user-friendly interface. If you need advanced features, use fdisk(8) instead."
 +
:::Updated links with [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Installation_guide&diff=443798&oldid=443361] -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 18:05, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
::::This said, one benefit of using man templates is that the format remains useful for {{ic|install.txt}}, contrary to wiki links which are converted to plain text. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 20:07, 9 August 2016 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
=== A note for Xen users ===
 +
 
 +
For Xen PV VMs, the hwclock --systohc --utc command does not need to be run. Please update the article. [[User:RudyValencia|RudyValencia]] ([[User talk:RudyValencia|talk]]) 12:07, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:This guide isn't meant to account for every special use case a user might have. Add something to the [[Time]] article if you think this is relevant. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 13:09, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
::On second thought, I assume this applies to other [[virtual machine]]s as well? -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 13:35, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
::: To be honest, running {{ic|hwclock --systohc --utc}} is hardly required if you plan to run a desktop enviroment, since most DEs can automatically set up your clock. But I agree that this should better be stated in the [[Time]] article [[User:Jujstme|Jujstme]] ([[User talk:Jujstme|talk]]) 14:38, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:::: It's something that could fit [[General recommendations]], yeah. That said, I'd say people should at least know on the UTC/localtime difference. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 16:47, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
=== <s>LVM and partitioning clarification</s> ===
 +
 
 +
I guess that it's worth mentioning that now (as on 23th of August, 2016) lvm2 package automatically installs and it needs to be removed/skipped if not utilized since it would make grub-mkconfig operate incorrectly and lead to unbootable OS.
 +
Also, beginners' guide had a small example how to do partitioning using parted, now there's none, not in this guide nor in beginners' one.
 +
 
 +
{{unsigned|04:38, 23 August 2016|ThePanda}}
 +
 
 +
:The {{Pkg|lvm2}} package has been part of the {{Grp|base}} group [https://git.archlinux.org/svntogit/packages.git/commit/trunk?h=packages/lvm2&id=50d7227a240f7ab65ca5660fc26a121706fffbff since at least 2008] so the problem is hardly at its side. The description of using parted is on the [[parted]] page, which is linked from both guides. -- [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 07:13, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
=== <s>"Other partitions may be needed" - needs expanding</s> ===
 +
 
 +
I suggest adding a short list of the situations where one might need to add a special partition to the disk. Knowing the pitfalls can save a lot of time.
 +
 
 +
For example, I recently installed Arch on a BTRFS RAID 1 array. I had planned to use Syslinux (my normal choice) but didn't find out until after installing that Syslinux doesn't support BTRFS multi-device. So I tried switching to GRUB, but of course I hadn't put a 1MB partition at the beginning of the drive. I had to wipe everything and start over. So just a short paragraph or (better still) a table here would be helpful - it could show the system configurations that different bootloaders support, and the various partitioning schemes that they require.
 +
 
 +
At the very least, it would be helpful to see "Check to make sure your system configuration is supported by your intended bootloader, and find out whether it will require additional partitions before you partition your disk."
 +
 
 +
[[User:Afontenot|afontenot]] ([[User talk:Afontenot|talk]]) 02:49, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:It seems this issue is hidden away as a Troubleshooting item in [[Syslinux#Btrfs_multi-device]]. First, it should be made more prominent in [[Btrfs#Multi-device_file_system]] and possibly [[RAID]].
 +
:For the table, we could expand on the existing one in [[:Category:Boot loaders]]. Establishing a relation between file systems and boot loaders as you propose sounds good though. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 06:05, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
::It would have been enough to read the first sentence of the [[syslinux]] page. -- [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 06:39, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:::Good point; I've fixed the link to not only point to the ext4 section of the syslinux wiki: [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Syslinux&curid=10347&diff=447636&oldid=446213]. I also think it doesn't hurt repeating, see: [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Category:Boot_loaders&curid=14299&diff=447639&oldid=440617], [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Btrfs&curid=10448&diff=447637&oldid=446122] -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 10:18, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:::Glad to see it's been added to the [[syslinux]] page - it wasn't when I did the install a month and a half ago. [[User:Afontenot|afontenot]] ([[User talk:Afontenot|talk]]) 07:07, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
::::Yeah, I think [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Category:Boot_loaders&curid=14299&diff=447639&oldid=440617] solves the problem, closing. -- [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 13:22, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
=== <s>"Boot loader" - clarification</s> ===
 +
 
 +
I suggest to briefly expand the Boot Loader section. Since GRUB is probably the easiest boot loader to configure for a beginner, just a simple sentence that clarifies that could be enough.  [[User:Jujstme|Jujstme]] ([[User talk:Jujstme|talk]]) 15:16, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:What in particular do you have in mind? Once upon a time, the Beginners' guide had a GRUB section for both BIOS/MBR and UEFI/GPT, but then it was mentioned that GRUB is not the recommended method for UEFI/GPT [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Talk:Beginners%27_guide&oldid=416614#Replace_systemd-boot_with_GRUB_.28UEFI.29], and that you should use systemd-boot instead. These sort of discussions on what's recommended and what not is why the guide ended up with linking to [[:Category:Boot loaders]] -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 13:11, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:: Then why not add the sentence you just wrote? eg: "If your system supports UEFI, the recommended method for setting up your bootloader is through systemd-boot."  [[User:Jujstme|Jujstme]] ([[User talk:Jujstme|talk]]) 12:20, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
::: How about: [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Installation_guide&diff=448056&oldid=447984] -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 12:57, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:::: That works fine. Thanks. At least for less experienced users, this will avoid losing too much time in order to find advantages and disadvantages for each boot loader :) [[User:Jujstme|Jujstme]] ([[User talk:Jujstme|talk]]) 13:03, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
=== "Connect to the Internet" is not properly explained ===
 +
It says: "check the connection using a tool such as ping(8)." But ping's man page is huge with lots of options of the ping command detailed. But nowhere does it have a simple example such as "ping google.com" which is exactly what someone trying to check the internet connection would need. The above line should be replaced with how it was in the Beginner's Guide: "Verify a connection was established, for example with ping archlinux.org".
 +
 
 +
: Perhaps with {{ic|ping}} we could link to [[Network configuration#Check the_connection]]. -- [[User:Rdeckard|Rdeckard]] ([[User_talk:Rdeckard|talk]]) 12:31, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:: Good suggestion, [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Installation_guide&diff=447850&oldid=447679 done]. -- [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 13:28, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
::: Is it useful to add a code line with {{ic|# ping archlinux.org}} (interrupted by {{ic|Ctrl-c}}) ? I'm unsure since there's a good bit of context to using ping, such as pinging with DNS or the IP address. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 16:26, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:::: I'd leave it this way, after all the installation guide is not a debugging guide, it can't cover everything that could possibly go wrong. Let's focus on the wireless part. -- [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 16:32, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
Basic wired and wireless connection scenarios should be on the installation page itself like it was in the Beginner's Guide.
 +
 
 +
:For [[Installation_guide#Connect_to_the_Internet]], we could link to [[Wireless_network_configuration#Manual_setup]]. The configuration will be disregarded on reboot anyway. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 19:12, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
"When using either service, stop dhcpcd@interface.service:" What is an interface? It's not explained here. Should be explained like it was in the Beginner's Guide:
 +
"Interfaces can be listed using ip link, or iw dev for wireless devices. They are prefixed with en (ethernet), wl (WLAN), or ww (WWAN)." And the command should also come with a concrete example like the Beginner's Guide was: "# systemctl stop dhcpcd@enp0s25.service".
 +
[[User:H0x0d|H0x0d]] ([[User talk:H0x0d|talk]]) 19:58, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
: The "interface" text was changed with [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Installation_guide&diff=441809&oldid=441764]. However, it doesn't hurt to give a quick explanation on what an interface is, possibly with a reminder they can be tab-completed. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 13:26, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:: Clarified in [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Installation_guide&diff=447853&oldid=447850]. Users will have to read [[systemd-networkd]] or [[netctl]] anyway if they need something better than dhcpcd, so we can skip the details here. -- [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 13:37, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
::: But neither [[systemd-networkd]] nor [[netctl]] pages proper explain what an interface is, or how one can list them using ip link or iw dev commands. [[User:H0x0d|H0x0d]] ([[User talk:H0x0d|talk]]) 13:43, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
::::[[Systemd-networkd#Configuration_examples]] suggests to use {{ic|networkctl list}}, [[Netctl#Profile_configuration]] (as well as the installation guide) links to [[Network configuration]] for full explanation. Feel free to improve those pages. -- [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 14:02, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
::::: Those are buried deep into those articles (as they should be), and in case of Netctl buried inside multiple links. What an interface is and how to obtain them should be more directly explained. Perhaps by linking directly to [[Network_configuration#Get_current_device_names]] from the Installation Guide. [[User:H0x0d|H0x0d]] ([[User talk:H0x0d|talk]]) 14:15, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
== Redirects and mediawiki 1.27 ==
 +
 
 +
As it doesn't look like ArchWiki will be updated to {{Pkg|mediawiki}} 1.27 anytime soon, I'd suggest to avoid section redirects such as {{ic|<nowiki>[[hostname]]</nowiki>}} in the [[Installation guide]], and use full section links like {{ic|<nowiki>[[Network configuration#Set the hostname|hostname]]</nowiki>}} instead. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 15:49, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
== Minor grammar corrections ==
 +
 
 +
[[Installation_guide#Pre-installation]] has the following sentence: "The installation process needs to retrieve packages from a remote repository, therefore a working internet connection is required."  This is a run-on sentence, as "therefore", a conjunctive adverb, should not join two independent clauses without a semicolon (or a period), and it should be followed by a comma when it begins an independent clause.  I suggest it be changed to: "The installation process needs to retrieve packages from a remote repository; therefore, a working internet connection is required." --[[User:Mister Magotchi|Magotchi]] ([[User talk:Mister Magotchi|talk]]) 15:38, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
Additionally, "You will be logged in as the root user, and presented with a Zsh shell prompt;...", in the same section, has an unnecessary comma, as it's not followed by an independent clause.  I wouldn't mind fixing more of these if I were able. --[[User:Mister Magotchi|Magotchi]] ([[User talk:Mister Magotchi|talk]]) 15:42, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
[[Installation_guide#Set_the_keyboard_layout]] has the following sentence: "Console fonts are located in /usr/share/kbd/consolefonts/, and can likewise be set with setfont(8)."  The comma is unnecessary, as it is not followed by an independent clause. --[[User:Mister Magotchi|Magotchi]] ([[User talk:Mister Magotchi|talk]]) 15:48, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
[[Installation_guide#Select_the_mirrors]] contains: "Regional mirrors usually work best; however, other criteria may be necessary to discern, read more on Mirrors."  The final comma should be removed, and a new sentence should be started.  A semicolon could technically work, but as the sentence already contains one, it would probably look bloated. --[[User:Mister Magotchi|Magotchi]] ([[User talk:Mister Magotchi|talk]]) 15:55, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 15:55, 30 August 2016

Read this first before adding new suggestions

  • The point of this page is to be a concise checklist of things to be done. Detailed instructions belong in wiki articles or upstream documentation which describe the respective topics.
  • Should you have more complex changes for this guide in mind, create a copy on your user page, and link it here for review.
  • systemd tools such as hostnamectl, timedatectl and localectl do not work in the installation chroot environment, so please do not propose to use them in the guide unless you can prove that they have been made to work also in that case. See [1], [2], [3] and [4] for some past discussions about this issue.
  • localectl list-keymaps does not work due to bug FS#46725. For the chosen replacement command, see [5].

-- The ArchWiki Administrators 12:16, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

"See foo" vs "See the foo article"

Moved from Talk:Beginners' guide. -- Alad (talk) 20:29, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

This revision [6] added a new mention of "See the foo article", rather than the more common "See foo". I'd argue former is the better form, and when the guide is viewed from a .txt (if the BG/IG merge completes), the longer wording makes sense as well. Are there opinions against using the longer form throughout the BG? -- Alad (talk) 00:13, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

I'm neutral, so that doesn't count as an opinion against ^^ That said, the long form can only be used with links to entire articles, but more difficultly with links to specific sections such as "See also Pacman#pacman crashes the official installation media", since in those cases a more natural-sounding long form should be something like "See also the 'pacman crashes the official installation media' section of the Pacman article", I think, which is clearly ugly to see and use, so consistency is a bit hard to reach. — Kynikos (talk) 16:13, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
I guess the proper solution would be to incorporate links in the article text where possible. "See X" gets repetitive fast, anyway. -- Alad (talk) 14:44, 29 September 2015 (UTC)

pacman-key --populate

Moved from Talk:Beginners' guide. -- Alad (talk) 20:38, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

Reference: https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Beginners%27_guide&diff=next&oldid=411670 I tried to install Archlinux on my new computer and got stuck. Only using the pacman-key --populate archlinux helped me. I think I am not the only one having this problem. But why did you undo it? —This unsigned comment is by Sandstorm (talk) 20:38, 12 December 2015‎. Please sign your posts with ~~~~!

This command is already run for the new system (by installation of archlinux-keyring), so running it by hand shouldn't be required for most users. Of course, things can go wrong (how old was the ISO you used to install the system?), but that belongs in Troubleshooting sections of the respective articles, which are linked at the beginning of the guide. -- Alad (talk) 19:52, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
I had downloaded the ISO just yesterday, minutes before the install. Only that command installed the keys. Probably I should open a bug if you can confirm the issue?
Did you have to run pacman-key after, or before pacstrap? And do you recall what the error messages said exactly? (See also FS#31286) -- Alad (talk) 20:15, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
I had to run after pacstrap. As far as I remember, pacstrap stopped after trying to download the keys. The error message was something like shown in this forum post: https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=165367
Well then, as you suggested, I'd open a bug report. -- Alad (talk) 20:34, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
Done. Could you check if the description is good. I could not find an appropriate category, so I though Packages:Core might be the closest one. https://bugs.archlinux.org/task/47351 --Sandstorm (talk) 20:48, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
Thanks, the description looks OK. If the category e.a is not right, User:Scimmia should fix it. :P -- Alad (talk) 13:59, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
Hmm, looks like it was closed with "Works for me" ... not very enlightening. All I can suggest is to further improve on Pacman/Package signing and related articles, and recheck if they're accessible enough from the Beginners' guide. -- Alad (talk) 21:59, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

timesyncd: add manual date

Moved from Talk:Beginners' guide. -- Alad (talk) 20:44, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

While the right time isn't as important in the live system as in the installed one, it may still be unexpected to users [7]. We could instead instruct to specify a date explicitly to timedatectl. -- Alad (talk) 11:25, 6 July 2016 (UTC)

Is the issue setting the time manually or just setting the time zone? The change you linked to just had setting the time zone. -- Rdeckard (talk) 01:29, 9 July 2016 (UTC)
Well, with setting it manually you'd kill two birds with one stone. The time would be what users expect, but without adding an extra step of little consequence. -- Alad (talk) 18:35, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

BG merge

Progress on Talk:Beginners'_guide#The_Great_Merge is below. Note that content is not copied literally from the BG, but kept in the style and spirit of the IG. This keeps a clear overview of the various steps; if more detailed instructions are required, these belong in dedicated articles. -- Alad (talk) 23:32, 9 July 2016 (UTC)

The merge is done. -- Alad (talk) 11:30, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
Well, I thought this was too big of a change not to take this chance to thank you and all those who contributed to discussing and implementing this task during the past years!! — Kynikos (talk) 11:05, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

Sections

Introduction [✔]
  1. Preparation
    1. UEFI mode [✔]
    2. Set the keyboard layout [✔]
    3. Connect to the internet [✔]
    4. Update the system clock [✔]
  2. Prepare the storage devices
    1. Identify the devices [✔]
    2. Partition the devices [✔]
    3. Format the partitions [✔]
    4. Mount the partitions [✔]
  3. Installation
    1. Select the mirrors [✔]
    2. Install the base packages [✔]
  4. Configuration
    1. fstab [✔]
    2. Change root [✔]
    3. Locale [✔]
    4. Time [✔]
    5. Initramfs [✔]
    6. Boot loader [✔]
    7. Network configuration [✔]
      1. Hostname [✔]
      2. Wired [✔]
      3. Wireless [✔]
    8. Root password [✔]
  5. Unmount the partitions and reboot [✔]
  6. Post-installation [✔]

Switch to systemd-networkd

Next ISOs may use systemd-networkd instead of dhcpcd, see [8] -- Alad (talk) 10:26, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

Dual-boot with windows

In the Beginners' guide, this is mentioned in Beginners'_guide#Format_the_partitions, but perhaps this should be linked earlier, e.g. in Installation guide#Pre-installation. -- Alad (talk) 12:08, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

What about Installation_guide#Partition_the_disks? — Kynikos (talk) 09:51, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

The Great Merge

[Moved from Talk:Beginners' guide. — Kynikos (talk) 11:11, 24 August 2016 (UTC)]

#Plan reaches closure, and the Beginners' guide is now comparable in size to the Installation guide. "Cleanup day" [9] would be a good time to start the merge of both guides, and replace the Beginners' guide, together with translations on this domain, to redirections to the Installation guide.

It would be preferable if before then, a TU or dev also brings this up on arch-dev-public for input from the developers, also regarding #Page protection. -- Alad (talk) 14:25, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

I agree with extending the redirection to the translations, with the exception of 4 which are actively maintained or have been retranslated recently, so I've flagged them to see if their maintainers want to deal with the merge on their own: Beginners' guide (العربية), Beginners' guide (Español), Beginners' guide (Русский) and Beginners' guide (简体中文). — Kynikos (talk) 10:58, 6 July 2016 (UTC)
I will take care of Beginners' guide (简体中文). --Fengchao (talk) 06:21, 7 July 2016 (UTC)
Note that typically content is rewritten in the Installation guide, rather than taken literally from the Beginners' guide (see Talk:Installation_guide#BG_merge), so my suggestion is to focus translation efforts on the Installation guide, rather than the Beginners' guide. -- Alad (talk) 17:44, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
I've redirected all translations apart from the above. -- Alad (talk) 18:50, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
There are still some pages left: [10] -- Lahwaacz (talk) 07:13, 14 July 2016 (UTC)
I've just handled those, but there's more to do at [11]. — Kynikos (talk) 10:38, 14 July 2016 (UTC)
What's the point of redirecting templates to regular pages? [12] Lahwaacz (talk) 07:59, 15 July 2016 (UTC)
We were discussing that in ArchWiki_talk:Administrators#How_to_archive_templates, we had a half-baked solution, maybe we should just put it to the vote. — Kynikos (talk) 14:28, 16 July 2016 (UTC)
Oops, 154 days and still no reply from me, sorry about that... Thanks for your patience and strong nerves for the future, because unfortunately it's far from being the worst case of my this-year-maybe discussions :P
In this case, I'd say that the templates can be simply deleted: it's fairly trivial transclusion of one <div> and a couple of links, without any MediaWiki hacks, which can be recreated any time if needed. There is also pretty low probability that beginners' guides will be allowed in the near (less than 10 years) future in general, let alone split across multiple pages requiring navigational template. And if it's needed sometime in the next century, they will most likely have something better than MediaWiki's obscure template syntax.
-- Lahwaacz (talk) 15:13, 16 July 2016 (UTC)
These redirected templates are a very marginal problem IMO, I don't mind if they stay as redirects or are deleted, but only because the fact that ArchWiki_talk:Administrators#How_to_archive_templates is still open justifies deciding case by case for the moment. Note that as redirects they don't pollute Special:UnusedTemplates. I wouldn't like to promote deletion as the official default template archiving method though, but I agree with delaying the resolution of that discussion, there are other priorities right now. — Kynikos (talk) 13:57, 18 July 2016 (UTC)
So I've taken the chance and deleted the BG navigation templates. Let's wait for ArchWiki_talk:Administrators#How_to_archive_templates with the general decision, hopefully this year... -- Lahwaacz (talk) 18:06, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

Main page link

Before redirecting we have to decide at least how to rebalance the links in the Main page: what about also removing the Arch Linux press coverage link from the left colum? That article is pretty much unmaintained anyway, we can give it more backlinks from somewhere else. — Kynikos (talk) 11:04, 6 July 2016 (UTC)

+1 from me -- Alad (talk) 11:30, 6 July 2016 (UTC)

Let's not forget that we must also patch the main home page. — Kynikos (talk) 10:14, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

https://lists.archlinux.org/pipermail/arch-projects/2016-August/004400.html -- Alad (talk) 05:46, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

Translations

The translations of the Main page should be updated along with the English page. Also the backlinks of the BG translations should be cleaned as much as possible, as that might be somewhat confusing for future translators. -- Lahwaacz (talk) 11:45, 30 July 2016 (UTC)

Oh jolly... can we automate this with a bot somehow? -- Alad (talk) 18:12, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
I haven't been doing any natural language processing yet, but if you feel like teaching my bot Chinese, please help yourself :)
Just kidding, I could probably make some semi-automatic assistant to at least quickly find and mark the links and open vimdiff for manual editing.
-- Lahwaacz (talk) 18:23, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
I've fixed most of the backlinks to the english article, as well as the translated Main page articles. For the backlinks to translations I could definitely use the help of an assistant. :P -- Alad (talk) 00:35, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

Clarifications

General

I would also say the biggest pain points are the partitioning, filesystem and mount sections --Alexendoo (talk) 12:28, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

Verify the boot mode

Verify the boot mode tells you to check efivars but doesn't give the expected output (if none, no UEFI) -- /u/youguess

Via [13]. Note that it explicitely mentions "does not exist" rather than none/empty; see [14] and following. -- Alad (talk) 18:48, 29 August 2016 (UTC)

Connect to the Internet

"For other network configuration, ..." is badly worded

Reworded with [15] -- Alad (talk) 19:03, 29 August 2016 (UTC)

There is no mention of wireless networks

--Alexendoo (talk) 12:28, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

Why are both Systemd-networkd and netctl wiki pages and man pages both mentioned like this?: "If a different network configuration tool is needed, systemd-networkd and netctl are available. See systemd.network(5) and netctl.profile(5) for examples." The man pages should be mentioned in those respective wiki pages. The section should rewritten as: "If a different network configuration tool is needed, see either systemd-networkd or netctl for details." H0x0d (talk) 14:27, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

I'm not sure why there's an aversion to linking these man pages; both include direct examples on networkd/netctl usage. -- Alad (talk) 19:02, 29 August 2016 (UTC)

Connect to the internet, maybe direct link to wireless? /u/youguess

Partition the disks

A section on how to identify the devices is completely missing

The old page provided a very succinct introduction to partitioning, clear examples as well as appropriate warnings that data loss will incur if used incorrectly

The new page provides none of that, rather linking to many separate pages not as extra information or for less common use cases as is common in the Beginners' guide but rather as the only way to accomplish the task, it never actually answers the question "What do I need to do?"

--Alexendoo (talk) 12:28, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

Format the partitions

Similar story again, the new guide fails to answer the question "What do I need to do?", it abstracts away to the page on filesystem article that bombards a new user with 16 different filesystems instead of the common case the beginners guide provided: it mentioned explicitly it's recommended to use ext4

--Alexendoo (talk) 12:28, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

Mount the partitions

Instead of providing two short examples the user is asked to read the manpage for mount, for a beginner this is pretty unnecessary. They're then told to create directories but not told how

--Alexendoo (talk) 12:28, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

Regarding "mount" I think we should link to Mount from the installation guide and then we can link to the manpage from there. -- Rdeckard (talk) 12:31, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
Ok, though we should make some edits to the mount article. It's structured oddly, e.g the first section is a convoluted zgrep line.
For the examples, the main reason I've left them out is because the Beginners' guide used a horrid "/dev/sdxy, where x is ... and y ..." scheme. Though if you're following along, it should be pretty clear what a command like mount /dev/sda1 /mnt means. -- Alad (talk) 13:32, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

Mount the partion was easier to follow in the beginners guide, what I kind of miss is the explicit command example of first creating and then mounting a subdir of root (yes I know that it should be clear how to do that, but it wasn't for me at first before I read about what chrooting does) -- /u/youguess

I also wonder on the sentence "If you want them to be detected by genfstab". /boot will have to be mounted either way to write the kernel to the boot partition, for example. -- Alad (talk) 18:52, 29 August 2016 (UTC)

Fstab

Minor but I would think it's generally preferable to use -U as in the Beginners' guide since new users probably won't alter the command themselves

--Alexendoo (talk) 12:28, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

Via [16] -- Alad (talk) 16:17, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

Time Zone

"other operating systems should be configured accordingly." - Why/How?

--Alexendoo (talk) 12:28, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

If you follow the link to time standard, you'll see why and how. That's about as much as the installation guide can contain on this topic. -- Lahwaacz (talk) 13:50, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
I wonder if using a wording like "See time standard for details" is more clear after all. cf. #.22See_foo.22_vs_.22See_the_foo_article.22 -- Alad (talk) 14:02, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
Yes I agree. It's similar to the hostname section I commented on below. The whole article needs to make it clear that clicking on certain links will show the user on how to accomplish a task, vs simply giving more insight on something. H0x0d (talk) 14:09, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
This is completely fine and natural, the proposed alternative ("If the time standard is set to UTC, other operating systems should be configured accordingly. See time standard for details.") is overly repetitive. Unlike other media, on ArchWiki there are links incorporated into the text not to be ignored, but followed, if not already known to the reader. We're giving the reader a hint, it's up to them how they handle it. -- Lahwaacz (talk) 14:39, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
Overly repetitive is better than being unclear, when it comes to a guide like this. If you don't want to repeat the phrases "see details", then it should be at least written like this: "If the time standard is set to UTC, other operating systems should be configured accordingly." H0x0d (talk) 14:47, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
Alright, changed. -- Lahwaacz (talk) 15:05, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

Locale

If a user doesn't know what they are yet, they may not know which are needed

--Alexendoo (talk) 12:28, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

The Beginners' guide had a sentence on the definition on the word "locale", but otherwise equally went on about "needed" locales. The locale page also isn't very clear about this:
The locales that can be generated are listed in the /etc/locale.gen file: their names are defined using the format [language][_TERRITORY][.CODESET][@modifier]
setlocale(3) has some more information:
A locale name is typically of the form language[_territory][.codeset][@modifier], where language is an ISO 639 language code, territory is an ISO 3166 country code, and codeset is a character set or encoding identifier like ISO-8859-1 or UTF-8. For a list of all supported locales, try "locale -a", cf. locale(1).
If the "Add LANG=your_locale to locale.conf(5)" part isn't clear enough, I'd add something like "where your_locale is an entry listed in localedef --list-archive. More elegant/reliable than the "first column of foo" stuff. -- Alad (talk) 03:07, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
[17] and [18] should make things clearer. The "needed" wording is still there, but I don't know of a good replacement without copying Locale verbatim. -- Alad (talk) 04:41, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
[19] mentions to uncomment en_US explicitely, also to assist with Code_of_conduct#Pasting_pictures_and_code. Closing, feel free to reopen if you have more suggestions. -- Alad (talk) 14:53, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

Hostname

Again needing to read manpages instead of a short example

--Alexendoo (talk) 12:28, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

There is a link to hostname, we won't duplicate its content here. Closing. -- Lahwaacz (talk) 13:46, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
Well, a single code line # echo myhostname > /etc/hostname wouldn't hurt, as hostname first mentions hostnamectl, only to then mention it doesn't work in the installation environment and that you should edit /etc/hostname. -- Alad (talk) 14:06, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
That's a good point. I'll leave it up to you to add it to the Installation guide or Network configuration. -- Lahwaacz (talk) 14:48, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
Via [20] and [21] -- Alad (talk) 15:04, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
The line #echo myhostname > /etc/hosts needs to be corrected to /etc/hostname. --Deadrabbit (talk) 17:52, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
Thanks, corrected. -- Alad (talk) 18:15, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

Network configuration covers setting the hostname in better detail than the Hostname section, perhaps it can be just covered there instead of in the install guide also.

--Alexendoo (talk) 12:28, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

The Installation_guide#Hostname section already contains little more than the link to hostname (redirects to Network configuration#Set the hostname), so I'd say it's pretty much "covered there". Do you suggest to remove the section completely? -- Lahwaacz (talk) 13:45, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
However that link isn't worded in a way that makes it obvious that following that link would show one how to set the hostname. It should said like this: "Create an entry for your hostname in /etc/hostname and /etc/hosts. See Network configuration#Set the hostname for example on how to set the hostname." There's no need to mention the hostname or hostnamectl man pages in the Installation Guide as they are already covered in the Network configuration#Set the hostname section. H0x0d (talk) 13:55, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
This should be covered by the edits above -- Alad (talk) 16:14, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

hostname redirect

With [22] we've dropped the redirect to hostname, because the target is linked in the paragraph after that. This is different from the surrounding sections, which link the term when it is first mentioned.

A workaround would be e.g. "Create an entry for the hostname(7)", though we could instead consider moving Network_configuration#Local_network_hostname_resolution below Network_configuration#Set_the_hostname. The two sections are directly related, and we could remove some duplicated content in the process. -- Alad (talk) 19:42, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

Should be covered by [23] and [24] -- Alad (talk) 02:32, 29 August 2016 (UTC)

Initramfs

It's not mentioned that most users don't need to worry about this section

--Alexendoo (talk) 12:28, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

Initramfs, maybe add some examples like "eg encrypting/btrfs hook" so that beginners know what it is for? -- /u/youguess

I'm not sure how to best word this. Installation_guide#Partition_the_disks mentions:
If wanting to create any stacked block devices for LVM, disk encryption or RAID, do it now.
and each of those articles mention you need to edit mkinitcpio.conf already. "When" may be an unfortunate wording, however - since this step is indeed optional. See also #Initramfs. -- Alad (talk) 18:34, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

Elinks

w:Virtual console usage is probably too basic/essential to keep as a Tip on the elinks page. It should be mentioned in the introduction or Installation guide#Pre-installation instead. -- Alad (talk) 19:10, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

Small suggestion

I think in Partition the disks section should be also mentioned cfdisk as its much easier for beginners and in Install the base packages section should be also mentioned base-devel package group. --Conder (talk) 15:44, 30 July 2016 (UTC)

Whether cfdisk is easier for beginners depends on the person using it; for instance, someone on IRC was installing Arch for the first time and found the menu-based approach of gdisk more straightforward than the "GUI" of cgdisk. That said, we might as well link to the man page.
For base-devel, see #Let.27s_mention_filesystem_tools_in_pacstrap_step. -- Alad (talk) 17:17, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
We might as well link to the fdisk page instead, which covers all 6 tools; cf. [25]. -- Lahwaacz (talk) 17:44, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
Okay, though the article mentions "This article covers fdisk and its related sfdisk and cfdisk utilities, as well as the analogous gdisk, sgdisk and cgdisk utilities" but misses the promised cfdisk/cgdisk sections. I guess there's not that much to explain anyway, cf. cfdisk(8) "Note that cfdisk provides basic partitioning functionality with a user-friendly interface. If you need advanced features, use fdisk(8) instead."
Updated links with [26] -- Alad (talk) 18:05, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
This said, one benefit of using man templates is that the format remains useful for install.txt, contrary to wiki links which are converted to plain text. -- Alad (talk) 20:07, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

A note for Xen users

For Xen PV VMs, the hwclock --systohc --utc command does not need to be run. Please update the article. RudyValencia (talk) 12:07, 1 August 2016 (UTC)

This guide isn't meant to account for every special use case a user might have. Add something to the Time article if you think this is relevant. -- Alad (talk) 13:09, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
On second thought, I assume this applies to other virtual machines as well? -- Alad (talk) 13:35, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
To be honest, running hwclock --systohc --utc is hardly required if you plan to run a desktop enviroment, since most DEs can automatically set up your clock. But I agree that this should better be stated in the Time article Jujstme (talk) 14:38, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
It's something that could fit General recommendations, yeah. That said, I'd say people should at least know on the UTC/localtime difference. -- Alad (talk) 16:47, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

LVM and partitioning clarification

I guess that it's worth mentioning that now (as on 23th of August, 2016) lvm2 package automatically installs and it needs to be removed/skipped if not utilized since it would make grub-mkconfig operate incorrectly and lead to unbootable OS. Also, beginners' guide had a small example how to do partitioning using parted, now there's none, not in this guide nor in beginners' one.

—This unsigned comment is by ThePanda (talk) 04:38, 23 August 2016. Please sign your posts with ~~~~!

The lvm2 package has been part of the base group since at least 2008 so the problem is hardly at its side. The description of using parted is on the parted page, which is linked from both guides. -- Lahwaacz (talk) 07:13, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

"Other partitions may be needed" - needs expanding

I suggest adding a short list of the situations where one might need to add a special partition to the disk. Knowing the pitfalls can save a lot of time.

For example, I recently installed Arch on a BTRFS RAID 1 array. I had planned to use Syslinux (my normal choice) but didn't find out until after installing that Syslinux doesn't support BTRFS multi-device. So I tried switching to GRUB, but of course I hadn't put a 1MB partition at the beginning of the drive. I had to wipe everything and start over. So just a short paragraph or (better still) a table here would be helpful - it could show the system configurations that different bootloaders support, and the various partitioning schemes that they require.

At the very least, it would be helpful to see "Check to make sure your system configuration is supported by your intended bootloader, and find out whether it will require additional partitions before you partition your disk."

afontenot (talk) 02:49, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

It seems this issue is hidden away as a Troubleshooting item in Syslinux#Btrfs_multi-device. First, it should be made more prominent in Btrfs#Multi-device_file_system and possibly RAID.
For the table, we could expand on the existing one in Category:Boot loaders. Establishing a relation between file systems and boot loaders as you propose sounds good though. -- Alad (talk) 06:05, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
It would have been enough to read the first sentence of the syslinux page. -- Lahwaacz (talk) 06:39, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
Good point; I've fixed the link to not only point to the ext4 section of the syslinux wiki: [27]. I also think it doesn't hurt repeating, see: [28], [29] -- Alad (talk) 10:18, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
Glad to see it's been added to the syslinux page - it wasn't when I did the install a month and a half ago. afontenot (talk) 07:07, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
Yeah, I think [30] solves the problem, closing. -- Lahwaacz (talk) 13:22, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

"Boot loader" - clarification

I suggest to briefly expand the Boot Loader section. Since GRUB is probably the easiest boot loader to configure for a beginner, just a simple sentence that clarifies that could be enough. Jujstme (talk) 15:16, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

What in particular do you have in mind? Once upon a time, the Beginners' guide had a GRUB section for both BIOS/MBR and UEFI/GPT, but then it was mentioned that GRUB is not the recommended method for UEFI/GPT [31], and that you should use systemd-boot instead. These sort of discussions on what's recommended and what not is why the guide ended up with linking to Category:Boot loaders -- Alad (talk) 13:11, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
Then why not add the sentence you just wrote? eg: "If your system supports UEFI, the recommended method for setting up your bootloader is through systemd-boot." Jujstme (talk) 12:20, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
How about: [32] -- Alad (talk) 12:57, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
That works fine. Thanks. At least for less experienced users, this will avoid losing too much time in order to find advantages and disadvantages for each boot loader :) Jujstme (talk) 13:03, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

"Connect to the Internet" is not properly explained

It says: "check the connection using a tool such as ping(8)." But ping's man page is huge with lots of options of the ping command detailed. But nowhere does it have a simple example such as "ping google.com" which is exactly what someone trying to check the internet connection would need. The above line should be replaced with how it was in the Beginner's Guide: "Verify a connection was established, for example with ping archlinux.org".

Perhaps with ping we could link to Network configuration#Check the_connection. -- Rdeckard (talk) 12:31, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
Good suggestion, done. -- Lahwaacz (talk) 13:28, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
Is it useful to add a code line with # ping archlinux.org (interrupted by Ctrl-c) ? I'm unsure since there's a good bit of context to using ping, such as pinging with DNS or the IP address. -- Alad (talk) 16:26, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
I'd leave it this way, after all the installation guide is not a debugging guide, it can't cover everything that could possibly go wrong. Let's focus on the wireless part. -- Lahwaacz (talk) 16:32, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

Basic wired and wireless connection scenarios should be on the installation page itself like it was in the Beginner's Guide.

For Installation_guide#Connect_to_the_Internet, we could link to Wireless_network_configuration#Manual_setup. The configuration will be disregarded on reboot anyway. -- Alad (talk) 19:12, 29 August 2016 (UTC)

"When using either service, stop dhcpcd@interface.service:" What is an interface? It's not explained here. Should be explained like it was in the Beginner's Guide: "Interfaces can be listed using ip link, or iw dev for wireless devices. They are prefixed with en (ethernet), wl (WLAN), or ww (WWAN)." And the command should also come with a concrete example like the Beginner's Guide was: "# systemctl stop dhcpcd@enp0s25.service". H0x0d (talk) 19:58, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

The "interface" text was changed with [33]. However, it doesn't hurt to give a quick explanation on what an interface is, possibly with a reminder they can be tab-completed. -- Alad (talk) 13:26, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
Clarified in [34]. Users will have to read systemd-networkd or netctl anyway if they need something better than dhcpcd, so we can skip the details here. -- Lahwaacz (talk) 13:37, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
But neither systemd-networkd nor netctl pages proper explain what an interface is, or how one can list them using ip link or iw dev commands. H0x0d (talk) 13:43, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
Systemd-networkd#Configuration_examples suggests to use networkctl list, Netctl#Profile_configuration (as well as the installation guide) links to Network configuration for full explanation. Feel free to improve those pages. -- Lahwaacz (talk) 14:02, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
Those are buried deep into those articles (as they should be), and in case of Netctl buried inside multiple links. What an interface is and how to obtain them should be more directly explained. Perhaps by linking directly to Network_configuration#Get_current_device_names from the Installation Guide. H0x0d (talk) 14:15, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

Redirects and mediawiki 1.27

As it doesn't look like ArchWiki will be updated to mediawiki 1.27 anytime soon, I'd suggest to avoid section redirects such as [[hostname]] in the Installation guide, and use full section links like [[Network configuration#Set the hostname|hostname]] instead. -- Alad (talk) 15:49, 29 August 2016 (UTC)

Minor grammar corrections

Installation_guide#Pre-installation has the following sentence: "The installation process needs to retrieve packages from a remote repository, therefore a working internet connection is required." This is a run-on sentence, as "therefore", a conjunctive adverb, should not join two independent clauses without a semicolon (or a period), and it should be followed by a comma when it begins an independent clause. I suggest it be changed to: "The installation process needs to retrieve packages from a remote repository; therefore, a working internet connection is required." --Magotchi (talk) 15:38, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

Additionally, "You will be logged in as the root user, and presented with a Zsh shell prompt;...", in the same section, has an unnecessary comma, as it's not followed by an independent clause. I wouldn't mind fixing more of these if I were able. --Magotchi (talk) 15:42, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

Installation_guide#Set_the_keyboard_layout has the following sentence: "Console fonts are located in /usr/share/kbd/consolefonts/, and can likewise be set with setfont(8)." The comma is unnecessary, as it is not followed by an independent clause. --Magotchi (talk) 15:48, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

Installation_guide#Select_the_mirrors contains: "Regional mirrors usually work best; however, other criteria may be necessary to discern, read more on Mirrors." The final comma should be removed, and a new sentence should be started. A semicolon could technically work, but as the sentence already contains one, it would probably look bloated. --Magotchi (talk) 15:55, 30 August 2016 (UTC)