Difference between revisions of "Talk:Installation guide"

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(Link to the German version: add)
(Format the partitions should use sda2 as an example.: wfm, close)
 
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* {{ic|localhost}} must be set explicitely in {{ic|/etc/hosts}}, as it is otherwise resolved over the network. See {{Bug|56684}}.
 
* {{ic|localhost}} must be set explicitely in {{ic|/etc/hosts}}, as it is otherwise resolved over the network. See {{Bug|56684}}.
 
-- [[ArchWiki:Administrators|The ArchWiki Administrators]] 22:17, 2 September 2016 (UTC)
 
-- [[ArchWiki:Administrators|The ArchWiki Administrators]] 22:17, 2 September 2016 (UTC)
 
 
__TOC__
 
__TOC__
  
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::::::::Hmm, looks like it was closed with "Works for me" ... not very enlightening. All I can suggest is to further improve on [[Pacman/Package signing]] and related articles, and recheck if they're accessible enough from the Beginners' guide. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 21:59, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
 
::::::::Hmm, looks like it was closed with "Works for me" ... not very enlightening. All I can suggest is to further improve on [[Pacman/Package signing]] and related articles, and recheck if they're accessible enough from the Beginners' guide. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 21:59, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
  
== Switch to systemd-networkd ==
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== Link to the German version ==
  
Next ISOs may use systemd-networkd instead of dhcpcd, see [https://lists.archlinux.org/pipermail/arch-releng/2016-July/003739.html] -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 10:26, 19 July 2016 (UTC)
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Instead of [[de:Arch Install Scripts]] you could choose [[de:Anleitung für Einsteiger]] it means "Beginner's Guid" and is a very
 +
detailed artikel for very new arch users and the future experts.
  
== <s>Wireless Configuration</s> ==
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:Thank you, [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Installation_guide&type=revision&diff=509961&oldid=508505 done]. -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 16:31, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
  
The advice for wireless network setup to refer to the wireless networking page in the Wiki could present a new user with a significant hurdle to overcome. The ARCH ISO contains wifi-menu, which should be sufficient for most purposes to establish a wireless network conneciton. I propose that informaton be added to the networking section at the start of the page stating:
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::This was already proposed last year and rejected: [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Talk:Installation_guide&oldid=466950#Suggesting_different_page_for_German_translation]. I don't see what has changed since then.  If someone adds me as admin to the german wiki or changes the protection settings, I can update [[de:Arch Install Scripts]] as required. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 18:13, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
  
For wireless connections, iw(8), wpa_supplicant(8) and netctl are available. See Wireless network configuration. The ARCH ISO makes wifi-menu available. The wifi-menu programme should be sufficiently powerful for most users to establish a connection to a known WiFi network. {{Unsigned|11:49, 18 October 2016‎|Deggy}}
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:::I see, I didn't remember that discussion so I've reverted the change, hopefully you'll make it to update the translation, let's leave this open until the problem is solved, otherwise this kind of suggestion will keep appearing recurrently. -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 17:53, 7 February 2018 (UTC)
  
:My eventual plan is to propose a man page for wifi_menu, then we can just link to that one instead of netctl. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 10:32, 18 October 2016 (UTC)
+
== Network configuration ==
  
::That would be great, I'd try to help; welcome to drop me a note about it. In the meantime I'd be +1 to Deggy's suggestion. Simplest way for new Archers, most of them will be used to a distro automatically enabling a network tool. Likewise, a simple sentence above it ala "see [[dhcpcd#Running]] for a quick start and [[Network configuration]] for free choice." would make it simpler for those wired users. --[[User:Indigo|Indigo]] ([[User talk:Indigo|talk]]) 10:33, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
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:The newly installed environment has no network connection activated by default. See [[Network configuration#Network management]].
  
:::Thanks. Though I disagree on another link to [[dhcpcd]] in [[Installation_guide#Network_configuration]]; attentive users will have noticed that it is the method used in the installation environment, and [[Installation_guide#Configure_the_system]] specifically avoids recommending particular software choices for the new system (due to endless bickering in our user base on what's "best" or "recommended").
+
:For [[Wireless configuration]], [[install]] the {{Pkg|iw}} and {{Pkg|wpa_supplicant}} packages, as well as needed [[Wireless#Installing driver/firmware|firmware packages]]. Optionally install {{Pkg|dialog}} for usage of ''wifi-menu''.
:::Regarding wifi-menu, its usage is poorly covered even in the [[netctl]] article ([[Netctl#Wireless_.28WPA-PSK.29]] doesn't even mention how to select an interface) so that, or said man page, should be fixed first in my view. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 22:38, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
 
  
::::[https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Netctl&type=revision&diff=471232&oldid=471030] Well, in this case "The [[dhcpcd]] daemon is [https://git.archlinux.org/archiso.git/tree/configs/releng/airootfs/etc/udev/rules.d/81-dhcpcd.rules enabled] on boot for '''wired''' devices,.." should be changed to "On the installation image the [[dhcpcd]] daemon is [[enable]]d on boot for '''wired''' devices,...", because the crosslink helps a new user more than the udev rule and it currently suggests a non-existent default. Likewise, [[Installation guide#Network configuration]] should clarify it again with "The newly installed environment has no network connection activated per default. See [[Network configuration]] to configure one." --[[User:Indigo|Indigo]] ([[User talk:Indigo|talk]]) 00:00, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
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The Network configuration section is rubbish. It doesn't explain that wifi-menu is part of [[netctl]] and telling users to install both iw ''and'' wpa_supplicant is plainly wrong. I would replace it with a DRY "See [[Network configuration]]." but maintainers aren't trusted to edit the [[Installation guide]]. --[[User:Larivact|Larivact]] ([[User talk:Larivact|talk]]) 17:09, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
  
:::::Sounds reasonable and would also strike off one point in [[#Notes]]. :) I think the link to the udev rule is still useful though, perhaps suitable for the ''wired'' word. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 02:13, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
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:If maintainers go on the talk page and plainly state "this section is rubbish" while indicating they would push their change without discussion, then no, I wouldn't trust maintainers with editing this central article. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 21:09, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
  
::::::[https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Installation_guide&type=revision&diff=471297&oldid=469435] @Deggy: Your suggestion not fully picked up yet, but for now ''wifi-menu'' is directly mentioned behind the [[Netctl#Wireless_.28WPA-PSK.29|netctl]] link. --[[User:Indigo|Indigo]] ([[User talk:Indigo|talk]]) 18:01, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
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::Nah, [[User:Larivact|Larivact]] is right. I had to go to a completely different site to figure out that wifi-menu even exists. It should include the line: "For supported wireless devices run {{ic|wifi-menu}} to set up the network". Would have saved me a couple hours. I genuinely don't understand why you would include the tool, but have no reference to it (and please don't take this as an indication that you should just remove the tool). [[User:Klaymen|Klaymen]] ([[User talk:Klaymen|talk]]) 02:38, 24 December 2018 (UTC)
  
:::::::Different suggestion: remove the links to [[netctl]] & co. alltogether, as this is already described in [[Wireless configuration]]. The table in [[Wireless_network_configuration#Automatic_setup]] could be expanded or generalized to mention {{Pkg|wireless-tools}} is unavailable on archiso.
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:I would agree linking appropriate article would suit more than current section, given deprecation of Beginners' Guide for similar reasons.
:::::::In other words:
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:It is not that maintainers aren't trusted, but that MediaWiki doesn't allow specifying what user groups can perform edits, the choice is only among all, only auto-confirmed or only admins [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=ArchWiki_talk:Contributing&oldid=512883], plus we need to discuss edits to central wiki articles beforehand anyway [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=User_talk:Svito&oldid=511693]. -- [[User:Svito|Svito]] ([[User talk:Svito|talk]]) 20:03, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
::::::::If no connection is available, [[stop]] the ''dhcpcd'' service with {{ic|systemctl stop dhcpcd@}}, {{ic|Tab}} and see [[Network configuration]] for '''wired''' devices or [[Wireless network configuration]] for '''wireless''' devices.
 
:::::::-- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 12:46, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
 
  
::::::::Implemented. Closing. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 13:37, 25 January 2018 (UTC)
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::I've wanted to create additional groups for a while now (should be simple with LocalSettings.php published). Anyone interested should be able to write a patch and send it to the admins. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 21:09, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
  
== <s>Suggest using genfstab -t PARTUUID for GPT partition tables.</s> ==
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:Indeed "rubbish" wasn't a very wise choice of a word, a lot of volunteer effort has been put to get to the current state of the wiki, of course everything can always be improved.
 +
:In particular, the history of that section basically is [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Beginners%27_guide&oldid=446855#Network_configuration Beginners' guide#Network configuration] > [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Installation_guide&diff=442466&oldid=442463] > [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Installation_guide&diff=442470&oldid=442469].
 +
:I'd be in favor of simply restoring a similar state to [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Installation_guide&oldid=442463#Network_configuration], i.e. I'd link [[Network configuration]] but also [[Wireless network configuration]] directly, and drop the rest of the details.
 +
:-- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 16:19, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
  
The guide currently suggests using -U or -L for UUIDs or labels respectively. I think there should be some mention of using PARTUUIDs for GPT partition tables.
+
::[https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Installation_guide&diff=522153&oldid=521933] With the recent changes to [[Network configuration]] article, we may make similar changes to [[Installation guide#Connect to the Internet]]. Even a specific link to [[Wireless network configuration]] should no longer be required, since you need to follow [[Network configuration#DHCP]] anyway and [[Wireless]] is linked from [[Network configuration#Setup]]. Proposed wording:
  
[[User:BrandonSchumann|BrandonSchumann]] ([[User talk:BrandonSchumann|talk]]) 20:28, 30 October 2017 (UTC)
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:::The installation image enables the [[dhcpcd]] daemon on boot for [https://git.archlinux.org/archiso.git/tree/configs/releng/airootfs/etc/udev/rules.d/81-dhcpcd.rules wired] network devices. The connection may be checked with:
 +
::: {{ic|# ping archlinux.org}}
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:::If no connection is available, [[stop]] the ''dhcpcd'' service:
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::: {{ic|# systemctl stop dhcpcd@<TAB>}}
 +
:::Proceed with instructions in [[Network configuration]].
  
:PARTUUID's aren't always generated. At least in my case with using btrfs subvolumes it doesn't output them when using "-t PARTUUID". -- [[User:Rdeckard|Rdeckard]] ([[User_talk:Rdeckard|talk]]) 11:30, 16 November 2017 (UTC)
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::If that's a bit too short we might expand the {{man|8|ping}} example, compare expansion template in [[Network_configuration#Ping]]. --[[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 16:38, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
  
::Closing for lack of further comments. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 13:38, 25 January 2018 (UTC)
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:::I actually prefer the current style with the systemctl example, using the ic template and a spelled-out instruction to press Tab. I don't see the need to expand further on ping directly in this page.
 +
:::On a second thought with respect to my previous post, I'm fine with dropping direct links to [[Wireless network configuration]] and only point to [[Network configuration]] as proposed in OP, i.e. also in [[Installation guide#Network configuration]] (I think we should be consistent between the two network-configuration sections).
 +
:::Another idea, we could merge [[Installation guide#Hostname]] into [[Installation guide#Network configuration]] now, since [[Hostname]] lands in [[Network configuration]] anyway, and even if that section is moved to [[DNS configuration]], it's still all network setup.
 +
:::-- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 15:08, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
  
== Include hint at top of page for install.txt ==
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::::I've removed the [[Wireless network configuration]] link from both sections. As it stands it cannot be used independently of [[Network configuration]] anyway. It's the devil or the blue sea - when configuring a simple wireless connection, users have to wade through pages of possibly unrelated information in [[Network configuration]] or be confused by missing steps in [[Wireless network configuration]]. Sometimes I believe that things would be much easier if our user base didn't value "choice" as much.
 +
::::About the ''systemctl'' example, after all this time I'm still not sure on the {{ic|Tab}} instructions. We never finished the relevant discussion in [[Help_talk:Reading]] and the steps to fill in (choosing the right ethernet adapter, tab-completing it and pressing return) are not necessarily obvious.
 +
::::About [[Installation guide#Hostname]], I'm fine with moving this section under [[Installation guide#Network configuration]]. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 23:22, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
  
Inform users that a copy of the installation guide can be found in ~/install.txt on the live CD.
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:::::I've merged #Hostname into #Network_configuration.
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:::::I hear you about the complexity of the network configuration pages, but it's a huge topic, I'll leave it to [[Talk:Network configuration]].
 +
:::::I'm going to reply to [[Help talk:Reading#Mention tab completion.3F]], but regarding this instance I propose the following:
 +
::::::If no connection is available, [[stop]] the ''dhcpcd'' service with {{ic|systemctl stop dhcpcd@''interface''}}; you can [[Wikipedia:Command-line_completion|tab-complete]] the {{ic|''interface''}} name. Then proceed to configure the network as described in [[Network configuration]].
 +
:::::-- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 15:49, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
  
This would be incredibly helpful for users who potentially don't have access to two computers at the same time. {{unsigned|23:33, 13 November 2017‎|Cheeseypi}}
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::::::I'd like "where the {{ic|interface}} name can be [[Wikipedia:Command-line_completion|tab-completed]]" better, but that's just a detail. -- [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 16:33, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
  
:install.txt is not a real copy in the sense that all wiki links are missing, and those without two computers can simply switch ttys to elinks as is described in [[Installation_guide#Pre-installation]] (throughout the guide, a working internet connection is assumed). -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 07:57, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
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:::::::Implemented [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Installation_guide&diff=523411&oldid=523346] -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 16:50, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
  
== <s>Document changes for filesystem package / Update sections where necessary</s> ==
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:::::::How about we add a sentence to [[Installation_guide#Network_configuration]] describing how to restore use of ''dhcpcd'' as done on the installation medium? That way if the connection already worked on installation people only need a brief look at [[dhcpcd]]. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 15:48, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
  
The filesystem package underwent some changes and the installation guide is not up to date anymore. Especially the part about the hosts file is not correct anymore. Additionally, group ids are not static anymore.
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::::::::I think that would just hide the possibility of choice from users. Maybe just say that dhcpcd is not enabled on the installed system without recommending anything. -- [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 17:34, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
  
For details please have a look here:
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:::::::May I suggest the following edit to this section:
 +
::::::::If no connection is available, or you are using a wireless device, [[stop]] the ''dhcpcd'' service with ... [[User:Tourian|Tourian]] ([[User talk:Tourian|talk]]) 04:45, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
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:::::::::That's already mentioned in the relevant section: [[Installation_guide#Connect_to_the_Internet]]. ''dhcpcd'' is not enabled by default in the installed system so there is nothing to stop in [[Installation_guide#Network_configuration]]. -- [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 06:33, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
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::::::::::I guess the proposed wording is indeed for [[Installation_guide#Connect_to_the_Internet]], which as it stands has no mention of wireless devices (only implied through lack of connection) -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 10:05, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
 +
:::::::::::Yes, it is not explicit. The wording on 20 May 2018 at the end of [[Installation_guide#Connect_to_the_Internet]] was "Proceed with [[Network configuration]] for wired devices or [[Wireless network configuration]] for wireless devices", with the reference to wireless devices removed after the decision to send those on wireless connections to [[Network configuration]]. Therefore, how about starting this section with, "If you are using a wireless network device, proceed with [[Network Configuration]]. For wired devices, the installation image enables the [[dhcpcd]] daemon on boot. The connection..." and leave the rest as it is. -- [[User:Tourian|Tourian]] ([[User talk:Tourian|talk]]) 14:04, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
  
https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?pid=1754949#p1754949
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::::::::::::I perhaps prefer the first wording you suggested, since we've always told people to disable the wired dhcpcd even when using a wireless connection, to rule out any possible conflicts. I don't feel strongly about this however.. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 16:03, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
  
{{unsigned|07:20, 14 December 2017‎|Jrk}}
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== Why should a static IP be preferred over 127.0.1.1 in /etc/hosts? ==
  
:[https://git.archlinux.org/svntogit/packages.git/diff/trunk/hosts?h=packages/filesystem&id=20928f58767d34ed6711befd6255f6a0b1706ae8 Here] is the change in question. -- [[User:Rdeckard|Rdeckard]] ([[User_talk:Rdeckard|talk]]) 01:51, 23 January 2018 (UTC)
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"If the system has a permanent IP address, it should be used instead of 127.0.1.1."
  
::Manually changing {{ic|/etc/hosts}} is now more required than before since otherwise localhost is resolved over the network. See {{Bug|56684}}. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 13:06, 25 January 2018 (UTC)
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I think the ArchWiki should not just say do X but also why. [[User:Alad|Alad]] as you added this, perhaps you can explain?--[[User:Larivact|Larivact]] ([[User talk:Larivact|talk]]) 15:14, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
  
==<s> Link to the German version </s>==
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:In [[Network_configuration#Local hostname resolution]]: "For a system with a permanent IP address, that permanent IP address should be used instead of 127.0.1.1." -- [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 06:48, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
  
Instead of [[de:Arch Install Scripts]] you could choose [[de:Anleitung für Einsteiger]] it means "Beginner's Guid" and is a very  
+
::[https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Network_configuration&diff=340138&oldid=333485 First] appearance in our wiki, cited [https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/debian-reference/ch05.en.html#_the_hostname_resolution source], also [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Talk:Network_configuration&oldid=360328#Hostname_resolution discussion]. -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 10:26, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
detailed artikel for very new arch users and the future experts.
+
 
 +
== Add a TIP under Post-installation ==
 +
 
 +
Under [[Installation_guide#Post-installation]], it may be a good idea to add a TIP like this for new (or even existing) users:
 +
{{Tip|Create an account at [https://wiki.archlinux.org/ ArchWiki] and add [[General recommendations]] page to your [[Special:Watchlist|Watchlist]] to automatically get alerts for new recommendation or changes to existing recommendations. You may also add other Wiki pages of your liking to the Watchlist so as to always stay up-to-date with them.}}
 +
-- [[User:Amish|Amish]] ([[User talk:Amish|talk]]) 01:19, 10 June 2018 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:It's certainly an interesting suggestion. I'm not sure if it's in the scope of the installation guide however; maybe [[Help:Reading]] is better suited? -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 21:26, 10 June 2018 (UTC)
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 +
::[[Installation guide]] would always be read by those installing Arch Linux. But not necessarily [[Help:Reading]] (today is first time I read it in 4-5 years with Arch Linux). So Installation guide will bring in more awareness and more involvement of users.
 +
 
 +
:::That's a bit of an issue since the Installation guide assumes users have read [[Help:Reading]]... though I'm not unaware of this, see e.g. [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Installation_guide&diff=508490&oldid=508486] -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 09:55, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
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 +
::::Actually the purpose of [[Help:Reading]] is to tell users how to read the page / article but not what can be done after Installation. Here Tip is intended to suggest what to do after installation. i.e. Post-installation.
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::::[[User:Amish|Amish]] ([[User talk:Amish|talk]]) 12:15, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
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 +
:I'd word it less imperatively:
 +
::{{Tip|You can stay up to date with ArchWiki articles by [[Special:CreateAccount|creating an account]] and adding articles of interest to [[Special:Watchlist|your Watchlist]].}}
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:--[[User:Larivact|Larivact]] ([[User talk:Larivact|talk]]) 04:47, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
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 +
::Sounds good to me. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 09:55, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
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 +
::My intention was to highlight [[General recommendations]] for Watchlist because thats a page every Arch user must follow to keep their Arch Linux well maintained. Other important page that I feel must be highlighted to be added in Watchlist is [[System maintenance]].
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::
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::OR we can have Tip like this:
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::{{Tip|You can stay up to date with ArchWiki articles by [[Special:CreateAccount|creating an account]] and adding articles of interest to [[Special:Watchlist|your Watchlist]]. Few articles you may want start with are at [[Main Page]]}}
 +
::-- [[User:Amish|Amish]] ([[User talk:Amish|talk]]) 12:32, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
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 +
:What is the current state of this suggestion, because I believe it is very interesting. I have a preference for the first proposed TIP.
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:-- [[User:Apollo22|Apollo22]] ([[User talk:Apollo22|talk]]) 19:23, 12 August 2018 (UTC)
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 +
:Why not just use bookmarks? Creating an account to follow changes seems more tedious, it's meant for editors. --[[User:Ubone|Ubone]] ([[User talk:Ubone|talk]]) 16:34, 22 September 2018 (UTC)
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 +
== Network Configuration -- WiFi discussion ==
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 +
I'm starting a new thread seeing as the last one took a different direction and never really got resolved.
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 +
----
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As it stands, the current instructions for the installation guide make it challenging for users who need to connect to the internet via a Wireless connection rather than wired. The [[Installation_guide#Connect_to_the_Internet]] section essentially assumes the users are using a wired connection, and to test it with a ping. Otherwise, they are directed to the [[Network_configuration]] page. Unfortunately, that page does not provide clear instructions for new users (or even those who just want to do a quick connection) to establish a connection via wireless. Equally so, should users find their way to the [[Wireless_network_configuration]] page, there is some digging to do there in order to find instructions to setup a connection. These are currently using the iw command, which may prove to be challenging to some.
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I see a few different possible solutions to improve the user experience:
 +
* Add explicit instructions to the installation guide
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** This is not ideal, as it adds another place to maintain likely duplicate information
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* Add a reference to the [[Wireless_network_configuration]] page
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** This is better, though the page would likely need a new section, or some tweaking to allow users to more easily find the information they need to get setup
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* Add new/better instructions to the [[Network_configuration]] page
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** This may also prove to be tricky, seeing as that page is already fairly monolithic, and focuses mostly on wired connections
 +
One other consideration (of which I also don't see any progress) is the discussions revolving around moving and breaking down the Network Configuration guides, to separate Wired and Wireless content. With this move I could see such instructions being provided there. In any case, the guide should provide instructions that are:
 +
* Easy to follow, particularly for new users
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* Puts no emphasis on persisting configurations, as this is not applicable during the install phase
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* Offers options (choice is King)
 +
--[[User:CubeTheThird|CubeTheThird]] ([[User talk:CubeTheThird|talk]]) 23:47, 26 August 2018 (UTC)
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 +
:The [[Wireless network configuration]] link [[Special:Diff/523161|was removed]] because it cannot be used independently of [[Network configuration]]. I propose the following:
 +
:# Implement [[Talk:Network configuration#Moving Ethernet-specific sections to Wired subpage]]. [[Network configuration]] currently isn't straightforward. The actual setup instructions are hidden in the ''Network management'' section and it's confusing that wireless has a subpage but wired and medium-agnostic configuration are mixed together. See [[User:Larivact/drafts/Network configuration|my demo]].
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:# <s>Have the ''Connect to the Internet'' section only link [[Network configuration]] and move the dhcpcd udev rule note there.</s>
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:# Move [[Wireless network configuration]] to [[Network configuration/Wireless]] and move its ''iw'' section to a dedicated article because since recently we also have [[iwd]].
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:The result should be more user-friendly without duplicating content.
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:--[[User:Larivact|Larivact]] ([[User talk:Larivact|talk]]) 07:13, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
::As for your demo, note that in [[Talk:Network_configuration#Ongoing_rewrite]], [[User:Alad|Alad]] said: "ping is one of the very first commands a new user has to run on installation to verify the availability of an internet connection". So unless you intend to direct users from the installation guide directly to the [[Network configuration#Troubleshooting]] section, there is still some more thinking to be done... -- [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 07:21, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:::Well then let's keep ''Connect to the Internet'' and revise it:
 +
 
 +
The installation image has [https://git.archlinux.org/archiso.git/tree/configs/releng/airootfs/etc/udev/rules.d/81-dhcpcd.rules a udev rule] that enables the [[dhcpcd]] service for Ethernet network interfaces on boot. If you use Ethernet, verify the connection with [[ping]]:
 +
 
 +
# ping archlinux.org
 +
 
 +
If the ping fails see [[Network configuration#Troubleshooting]]. If you want to use Wi-Fi or a static IP address, [[stop]] the ''dhcpcd'' service with {{ic|systemctl stop dhcpcd@''interface''}} where the {{ic|''interface''}} name can be [[Wikipedia:Command-line_completion|tab-completed]] and proceed with [[Network configuration]].
 +
 
 +
:::--[[User:Larivact|Larivact]] ([[User talk:Larivact|talk]]) 08:41, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
::::That looks good to me. -- [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 14:57, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
== ArchWiki link ==
 +
 
 +
[[special:diff/542917]] shouldn't that link go [[Table_of_contents]] or similar? --[[User:Ubone|Ubone]] ([[User talk:Ubone|talk]]) 13:20, 26 September 2018 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:Why would it? That link is supposed to specifically explain what ArchWiki ''is''. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 13:38, 26 September 2018 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
::isn't the context of the sentence about the tools used in the article and their wiki pages? --[[User:Ubone|Ubone]] ([[User talk:Ubone|talk]]) 14:39, 26 September 2018 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
== /etc/locale.conf needs to be created ==
 +
 
 +
The area needing a correction is [[Installation guide#Localization]].
 +
 
 +
The instructions tell you to set variables in the /etc/locale.conf file, but the file doesn't exist unless the user creates it. If the user needs to '''create''' the file, it should be explicitly explained with that language just as it is explained for the hostname file in [[Installation guide#Network configuration]] area. "'''Create''' the hostname file:"
 +
 
 +
For '''Localization''', I propose we add the verbiage ''Create the locale.conf file: /etc/locale.conf''
 +
[[User:Schlitzkrieg|Schlitzkrieg]] ([[User talk:Schlitzkrieg|talk]]) 18:52, 28 September 2018 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
== fstab ==
 +
 
 +
The section about generating the fstab with genfstab mentions -U and -L options but not the possibility to use GPT identifiers PARTUUID and PARTLABEL with the '-t' option. Those are described in [[Persistent block device naming]] and are a better choice for some users. genfstab itself doesn't explicitly list the GPT options either so IMHO it would be helpful to add this info here.
 +
 
 +
{{unsigned|15:12, 9 October 2018‎|Grmat}}
 +
 
 +
== <s>Format the partitions  should use sda2 as an example.</s> ==
 +
 
 +
Due to UEFI boot being the future and the standard that should be adopted if your hardware supports it. The section which discusses formatting the hard drive should be changed or a section should be added.The mounting and partitioning instructions should match or offer a section following the general recommended partition map for UEFI available here. [[Partitioning#UEFI.2FGPT_example_layout]] --[[User:Cozypjsam|Cozypjsam]] ([[User talk:Cozypjsam|talk]]) 14:55, 25 October 2018 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:No, it's just an example. --[[User:Larivact|Larivact]] ([[User talk:Larivact|talk]]) 15:39, 25 October 2018 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
::I believe the point here is to make an argument in favor of using a *better* example. If we just say {{ic|sda2}} everywhere, the example works just as well while matching what is far more likely to be real-world uses. Why do we use the example sda1 == rootfs, sda2 == ESP in the installation guide, while on other pages we do the exact reverse? (Keeping in mind that {{ic|dd}} is so aptly nicknamed due to the general awkwardness of keeping track of drive letters, why ask for more confusion?)
 +
::We could just go the other way and more consistently use {{ic|sdXY}} notation for examples, as we do elsewhere in the wiki, and therefore avoid even the pretense of actual commands to run. I think these are the only commands on the page that are actually customizable to the user's setup... -- [[User:Eschwartz|Eschwartz]] ([[User talk:Eschwartz|talk]]) 16:20, 25 October 2018 (UTC)
 +
::I agree with Eschwartz since its anyways customizable to the users setup.The only downside to that approach is we will have to add a line or two clarifying {{ic|sdXY}} should be changed to the users setup. --[[User:Cozypjsam|Cozypjsam]] ([[User talk:Cozypjsam|talk]]) 17:51, 25 October 2018 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:::I don't like either alternative, the first arbitrarily decides on some numbering, and XY requires to clumsily explain what X and Y mean. I'd suggest we finally resolve [[Talk:Partitioning#Restructuring]] instead and move some of the tables here. Example partition layouts have little relevance outside of the installation process anyway. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 13:25, 8 December 2018 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
::::That seems like a good idea, actually. What's the status on that, then? -- [[User:Eschwartz|Eschwartz]] ([[User talk:Eschwartz|talk]]) 05:28, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:::::I didn't go all the way with /dev/sdxy, but just /dev/sdx{1,2,3}. Please check the tables on the guide. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 20:27, 27 December 2018 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
::::::[[special:diff/560604]] the x should be bold as no one will notice it's italic --[[User:Ubone|Ubone]] ([[User talk:Ubone|talk]]) 11:35, 28 December 2018 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:::::::That depends on the browser, account settings etc. For example, in {{Pkg|elinks}} used on the ISO it's colored red. But it doesn't really matter since every article on the wiki uses italics for pseudo-variables by [[Help:Style]]. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 13:53, 28 December 2018 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
::::::::I won't argue but very few will use elinks instead of firefox or similar, maybe it's worth revisiting the pseudo-variables [[Help:Style]] as it makes sense for words but not very much so for single characters. --[[User:Ubone|Ubone]] ([[User talk:Ubone|talk]]) 17:16, 28 December 2018 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:::::::::Would you notice italics if the letter was capital ''X''? -- [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 20:22, 28 December 2018 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
::::::::::I guess that may be better. -- [[User:Ubone|Ubone]] ([[User talk:Ubone|talk]]) 02:26, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:::::::::::OK, changed. Is that enough to close this discussion? -- [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 21:49, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
== Wording in example layout table and size of EFI partition ==
 +
 
 +
Regarding [[Installation_guide#Example_layouts]]:
 +
# even if  many users will understand remainder of the device as what is left after size of /dev/sdx1 and /dev/sdx3 are subtsructed from the size of the device, I think the order of the table might be confusing for some. Some people might set /dev/sdx2 to the size of the device minus size of /dev/sdx1, and then stumbled at where from 512 MiB, or larger, are to be found for /dev/sdx3. Either suggest the swap space as /dev/sdx2 and / as /dev/sdx3, or better explain the meaning of the remainder of the device for sdx2.
 +
# As for the size of sdx1 for UEFI+GPT, I think 260-550 MiB are better than 260-512 MiB, as per [[EFI system partition#Create the partition]], which is referenced by [[partition#/boot]].
 +
[[User:Regid|Regid]] ([[User talk:Regid|talk]]) 14:05, 29 December 2018 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:I would like to propose an ESP size of 5 MiB (requires fat12 filesystem format), which works fine on any well-designed implementation of the UEFI spec, like my laptop, and elegantly covers the case where the EFI contains only a capable bootloader, which loads the kernel from another (ext4/btrfs/whatever) partition.
 +
 
 +
:Anyway the page you linked makes it quite clear that 512 MiB is fine for any UEFI implementation, and "avoiding confusion" seems to be rather inferior compared to just instructing people to use {{ic|mkfs.fat -F 32}}. -- [[User:Eschwartz|Eschwartz]] ([[User talk:Eschwartz|talk]]) 23:44, 29 December 2018 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
::I'm not sure I understand your comment. Do you propose to add an mkfs.fat line to [[Installation guide#Format the partitions]] for a /boot partition? -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 08:55, 30 December 2018 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:::I'm saying we already do do so, in [[EFI system partition#Format the partition]] where we go into lots of detail about the best way to set up an ESP, why fat32 is not necessary but nevertheless is recommended, and the optimal size for one. None of this elaboration is suitable for the [[Installation guide]], which does not even mention which filesystem type any of the example layouts uses. But we do explicitly state it "must" be fat32 in [[File systems#Create a file system]] which we link to immediately after the example layouts. -- [[User:Eschwartz|Eschwartz]] ([[User talk:Eschwartz|talk]]) 16:35, 30 December 2018 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:Using /dev/sdx2 for swap is questionable, it doesn't emphasize that swap is optional nor is it consistent with other articles like [[dm-crypt/Encrypting an entire system]]. If you have some better explanation for "remainder of the device" feel free to propose it. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 08:55, 30 December 2018 (UTC)
 +
:: I was trying to say that a user that patitions his HD by following the table might do the following: look at first row in the table, and creates the EFI partition. Than continue with the 2nd row. So he creates a partition at the remainder of his HD. Now he comes to the 3rd row: where will he get 512 MiB, or larger? As for [[dm-crypt/Encrypting an entire system]], I might be wrong thinking that each partition is considered a separate device, so it doesn't matter if the swap space is before, or after, the / partition. [[User:Regid|Regid]] ([[User talk:Regid|talk]]) 12:41, 30 December 2018 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
== systemctl ==
 +
:Moved from [[#Read this first before adding new suggestions]]. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 04:10, 2 January 2019 (UTC)
 +
I think this list of systemctl commands, perhaps the whole paragraph, should be stated in the installation guide itself, not only here. Also, the fact the some systemctl commands do work, according to [https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/798#issuecomment-126568596 github reference above], also worth explicit mention. Otherwise, users that do read pages of the wiki might not understand when to expect systemctl control commands, that are spread all over the wiki, to actually work within the chroot environment. [[User:Regid|Regid]] ([[User talk:Regid|talk]]) 21:43, 31 December 2018 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
== <s>Mount the file systems</s> ==
 +
 
 +
It seems the sentence "Create mount points for any remaining partitions" leads to confusion for some users, because "any ''remaining'' partitions" includes partitions with no mount point, i.e. a [[BIOS boot partition]]. They will then try to mount this partition to {{ic|/boot}} and have a broken installation. Alternatives:
 +
* Change "mount point" in the table to include the {{ic|/mnt}} prefix.
 +
:"mount point" can both mean the mount point in the installed system, and in the live environment. Since [[Installation guide#Mount the file systems]] mentions "create mount points" I guess latter makes sense.
 +
:[[Installation_guide#Partition_the_disks]] however mentions "One partition for the root directory {{ic|/}}."
 +
* Remove the instructions on mounting {{ic|/boot}}.
 +
:Not ideal since [[EFI system partition]] lacks any reference to {{ic|/mnt}}.
 +
-- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 15:41, 5 January 2019 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:I suppose we could recommend using {{ic|/mnt/bootloader}} for this, just to reinforce the idea that no, this is not /boot. And possibly also mention when creating mount points, "for any partitions that are meant to be mounted". This would also exclude swap, but I guess that is a lot less common to confuse... -- [[User:Eschwartz|Eschwartz]] ([[User talk:Eschwartz|talk]]) 03:47, 6 January 2019 (UTC)
  
:Thank you, [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Installation_guide&type=revision&diff=509961&oldid=508505 done]. -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 16:31, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
+
::Should be addressed by [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Installation_guide&type=revision&diff=563317&oldid=562589] -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 03:14, 15 January 2019 (UTC)
  
::This was already proposed last year and rejected: [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Talk:Installation_guide&oldid=466950#Suggesting_different_page_for_German_translation]. I don't see what has changed since then.
+
:::Looks good to me. -- [[User:Eschwartz|Eschwartz]] ([[User talk:Eschwartz|talk]]) 03:23, 15 January 2019 (UTC)
::If someone adds me as admin to the german wiki I can update [[de:Arch Install Scripts]] as required. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 18:13, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
 

Latest revision as of 03:31, 15 January 2019

Read this first before adding new suggestions

  • systemd tools such as hostnamectl, timedatectl and localectl do not work in the installation chroot environment, so please do not propose to use them in the guide unless you can prove that they have been made to work also in that case. See [1], [2], [3] and [4] for some past discussions about this issue.
  • localectl list-keymaps does not work due to bug FS#46725. For the chosen replacement command, see [5].
  • localhost must be set explicitely in /etc/hosts, as it is otherwise resolved over the network. See FS#56684.

-- The ArchWiki Administrators 22:17, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

pacman-key --populate

[Moved from Talk:Beginners' guide. -- Alad (talk) 20:38, 12 July 2016 (UTC)]

Reference: https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Beginners%27_guide&diff=next&oldid=411670 I tried to install Archlinux on my new computer and got stuck. Only using the pacman-key --populate archlinux helped me. I think I am not the only one having this problem. But why did you undo it? —This unsigned comment is by Sandstorm (talk) 20:38, 12 December 2015‎. Please sign your posts with ~~~~!

This command is already run for the new system (by installation of archlinux-keyring), so running it by hand shouldn't be required for most users. Of course, things can go wrong (how old was the ISO you used to install the system?), but that belongs in Troubleshooting sections of the respective articles, which are linked at the beginning of the guide. -- Alad (talk) 19:52, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
I had downloaded the ISO just yesterday, minutes before the install. Only that command installed the keys. Probably I should open a bug if you can confirm the issue?
Did you have to run pacman-key after, or before pacstrap? And do you recall what the error messages said exactly? (See also FS#31286) -- Alad (talk) 20:15, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
I had to run after pacstrap. As far as I remember, pacstrap stopped after trying to download the keys. The error message was something like shown in this forum post: https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=165367
Well then, as you suggested, I'd open a bug report. -- Alad (talk) 20:34, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
Done. Could you check if the description is good. I could not find an appropriate category, so I though Packages:Core might be the closest one. https://bugs.archlinux.org/task/47351 --Sandstorm (talk) 20:48, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
Thanks, the description looks OK. If the category e.a is not right, User:Scimmia should fix it. :P -- Alad (talk) 13:59, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
Hmm, looks like it was closed with "Works for me" ... not very enlightening. All I can suggest is to further improve on Pacman/Package signing and related articles, and recheck if they're accessible enough from the Beginners' guide. -- Alad (talk) 21:59, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

Link to the German version

Instead of de:Arch Install Scripts you could choose de:Anleitung für Einsteiger it means "Beginner's Guid" and is a very detailed artikel for very new arch users and the future experts.

Thank you, done. -- Kynikos (talk) 16:31, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
This was already proposed last year and rejected: [6]. I don't see what has changed since then. If someone adds me as admin to the german wiki or changes the protection settings, I can update de:Arch Install Scripts as required. -- Alad (talk) 18:13, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
I see, I didn't remember that discussion so I've reverted the change, hopefully you'll make it to update the translation, let's leave this open until the problem is solved, otherwise this kind of suggestion will keep appearing recurrently. -- Kynikos (talk) 17:53, 7 February 2018 (UTC)

Network configuration

The newly installed environment has no network connection activated by default. See Network configuration#Network management.
For Wireless configuration, install the iw and wpa_supplicant packages, as well as needed firmware packages. Optionally install dialog for usage of wifi-menu.

The Network configuration section is rubbish. It doesn't explain that wifi-menu is part of netctl and telling users to install both iw and wpa_supplicant is plainly wrong. I would replace it with a DRY "See Network configuration." but maintainers aren't trusted to edit the Installation guide. --Larivact (talk) 17:09, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

If maintainers go on the talk page and plainly state "this section is rubbish" while indicating they would push their change without discussion, then no, I wouldn't trust maintainers with editing this central article. -- Alad (talk) 21:09, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
Nah, Larivact is right. I had to go to a completely different site to figure out that wifi-menu even exists. It should include the line: "For supported wireless devices run wifi-menu to set up the network". Would have saved me a couple hours. I genuinely don't understand why you would include the tool, but have no reference to it (and please don't take this as an indication that you should just remove the tool). Klaymen (talk) 02:38, 24 December 2018 (UTC)
I would agree linking appropriate article would suit more than current section, given deprecation of Beginners' Guide for similar reasons.
It is not that maintainers aren't trusted, but that MediaWiki doesn't allow specifying what user groups can perform edits, the choice is only among all, only auto-confirmed or only admins [7], plus we need to discuss edits to central wiki articles beforehand anyway [8]. -- Svito (talk) 20:03, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
I've wanted to create additional groups for a while now (should be simple with LocalSettings.php published). Anyone interested should be able to write a patch and send it to the admins. -- Alad (talk) 21:09, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
Indeed "rubbish" wasn't a very wise choice of a word, a lot of volunteer effort has been put to get to the current state of the wiki, of course everything can always be improved.
In particular, the history of that section basically is Beginners' guide#Network configuration > [9] > [10].
I'd be in favor of simply restoring a similar state to [11], i.e. I'd link Network configuration but also Wireless network configuration directly, and drop the rest of the details.
-- Kynikos (talk) 16:19, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
[12] With the recent changes to Network configuration article, we may make similar changes to Installation guide#Connect to the Internet. Even a specific link to Wireless network configuration should no longer be required, since you need to follow Network configuration#DHCP anyway and Wireless is linked from Network configuration#Setup. Proposed wording:
The installation image enables the dhcpcd daemon on boot for wired network devices. The connection may be checked with:
# ping archlinux.org
If no connection is available, stop the dhcpcd service:
# systemctl stop dhcpcd@<TAB>
Proceed with instructions in Network configuration.
If that's a bit too short we might expand the ping(8) example, compare expansion template in Network_configuration#Ping. --Alad (talk) 16:38, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
I actually prefer the current style with the systemctl example, using the ic template and a spelled-out instruction to press Tab. I don't see the need to expand further on ping directly in this page.
On a second thought with respect to my previous post, I'm fine with dropping direct links to Wireless network configuration and only point to Network configuration as proposed in OP, i.e. also in Installation guide#Network configuration (I think we should be consistent between the two network-configuration sections).
Another idea, we could merge Installation guide#Hostname into Installation guide#Network configuration now, since Hostname lands in Network configuration anyway, and even if that section is moved to DNS configuration, it's still all network setup.
-- Kynikos (talk) 15:08, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
I've removed the Wireless network configuration link from both sections. As it stands it cannot be used independently of Network configuration anyway. It's the devil or the blue sea - when configuring a simple wireless connection, users have to wade through pages of possibly unrelated information in Network configuration or be confused by missing steps in Wireless network configuration. Sometimes I believe that things would be much easier if our user base didn't value "choice" as much.
About the systemctl example, after all this time I'm still not sure on the Tab instructions. We never finished the relevant discussion in Help_talk:Reading and the steps to fill in (choosing the right ethernet adapter, tab-completing it and pressing return) are not necessarily obvious.
About Installation guide#Hostname, I'm fine with moving this section under Installation guide#Network configuration. -- Alad (talk) 23:22, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
I've merged #Hostname into #Network_configuration.
I hear you about the complexity of the network configuration pages, but it's a huge topic, I'll leave it to Talk:Network configuration.
I'm going to reply to Help talk:Reading#Mention tab completion.3F, but regarding this instance I propose the following:
If no connection is available, stop the dhcpcd service with systemctl stop dhcpcd@interface; you can tab-complete the interface name. Then proceed to configure the network as described in Network configuration.
-- Kynikos (talk) 15:49, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
I'd like "where the interface name can be tab-completed" better, but that's just a detail. -- Lahwaacz (talk) 16:33, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
Implemented [13] -- Alad (talk) 16:50, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
How about we add a sentence to Installation_guide#Network_configuration describing how to restore use of dhcpcd as done on the installation medium? That way if the connection already worked on installation people only need a brief look at dhcpcd. -- Alad (talk) 15:48, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
I think that would just hide the possibility of choice from users. Maybe just say that dhcpcd is not enabled on the installed system without recommending anything. -- Lahwaacz (talk) 17:34, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
May I suggest the following edit to this section:
If no connection is available, or you are using a wireless device, stop the dhcpcd service with ... Tourian (talk) 04:45, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
That's already mentioned in the relevant section: Installation_guide#Connect_to_the_Internet. dhcpcd is not enabled by default in the installed system so there is nothing to stop in Installation_guide#Network_configuration. -- Lahwaacz (talk) 06:33, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
I guess the proposed wording is indeed for Installation_guide#Connect_to_the_Internet, which as it stands has no mention of wireless devices (only implied through lack of connection) -- Alad (talk) 10:05, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
Yes, it is not explicit. The wording on 20 May 2018 at the end of Installation_guide#Connect_to_the_Internet was "Proceed with Network configuration for wired devices or Wireless network configuration for wireless devices", with the reference to wireless devices removed after the decision to send those on wireless connections to Network configuration. Therefore, how about starting this section with, "If you are using a wireless network device, proceed with Network Configuration. For wired devices, the installation image enables the dhcpcd daemon on boot. The connection..." and leave the rest as it is. -- Tourian (talk) 14:04, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
I perhaps prefer the first wording you suggested, since we've always told people to disable the wired dhcpcd even when using a wireless connection, to rule out any possible conflicts. I don't feel strongly about this however.. -- Alad (talk) 16:03, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

Why should a static IP be preferred over 127.0.1.1 in /etc/hosts?

"If the system has a permanent IP address, it should be used instead of 127.0.1.1."

I think the ArchWiki should not just say do X but also why. Alad as you added this, perhaps you can explain?--Larivact (talk) 15:14, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

In Network_configuration#Local hostname resolution: "For a system with a permanent IP address, that permanent IP address should be used instead of 127.0.1.1." -- Lahwaacz (talk) 06:48, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
First appearance in our wiki, cited source, also discussion. -- Kynikos (talk) 10:26, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Add a TIP under Post-installation

Under Installation_guide#Post-installation, it may be a good idea to add a TIP like this for new (or even existing) users:

Tip: Create an account at ArchWiki and add General recommendations page to your Watchlist to automatically get alerts for new recommendation or changes to existing recommendations. You may also add other Wiki pages of your liking to the Watchlist so as to always stay up-to-date with them.

-- Amish (talk) 01:19, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

It's certainly an interesting suggestion. I'm not sure if it's in the scope of the installation guide however; maybe Help:Reading is better suited? -- Alad (talk) 21:26, 10 June 2018 (UTC)
Installation guide would always be read by those installing Arch Linux. But not necessarily Help:Reading (today is first time I read it in 4-5 years with Arch Linux). So Installation guide will bring in more awareness and more involvement of users.
That's a bit of an issue since the Installation guide assumes users have read Help:Reading... though I'm not unaware of this, see e.g. [14] -- Alad (talk) 09:55, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
Actually the purpose of Help:Reading is to tell users how to read the page / article but not what can be done after Installation. Here Tip is intended to suggest what to do after installation. i.e. Post-installation.
Amish (talk) 12:15, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
I'd word it less imperatively:
Tip: You can stay up to date with ArchWiki articles by creating an account and adding articles of interest to your Watchlist.
--Larivact (talk) 04:47, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
Sounds good to me. -- Alad (talk) 09:55, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
My intention was to highlight General recommendations for Watchlist because thats a page every Arch user must follow to keep their Arch Linux well maintained. Other important page that I feel must be highlighted to be added in Watchlist is System maintenance.
OR we can have Tip like this:
Tip: You can stay up to date with ArchWiki articles by creating an account and adding articles of interest to your Watchlist. Few articles you may want start with are at Main Page
-- Amish (talk) 12:32, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
What is the current state of this suggestion, because I believe it is very interesting. I have a preference for the first proposed TIP.
-- Apollo22 (talk) 19:23, 12 August 2018 (UTC)
Why not just use bookmarks? Creating an account to follow changes seems more tedious, it's meant for editors. --Ubone (talk) 16:34, 22 September 2018 (UTC)

Network Configuration -- WiFi discussion

I'm starting a new thread seeing as the last one took a different direction and never really got resolved.


As it stands, the current instructions for the installation guide make it challenging for users who need to connect to the internet via a Wireless connection rather than wired. The Installation_guide#Connect_to_the_Internet section essentially assumes the users are using a wired connection, and to test it with a ping. Otherwise, they are directed to the Network_configuration page. Unfortunately, that page does not provide clear instructions for new users (or even those who just want to do a quick connection) to establish a connection via wireless. Equally so, should users find their way to the Wireless_network_configuration page, there is some digging to do there in order to find instructions to setup a connection. These are currently using the iw command, which may prove to be challenging to some. I see a few different possible solutions to improve the user experience:

  • Add explicit instructions to the installation guide
    • This is not ideal, as it adds another place to maintain likely duplicate information
  • Add a reference to the Wireless_network_configuration page
    • This is better, though the page would likely need a new section, or some tweaking to allow users to more easily find the information they need to get setup
  • Add new/better instructions to the Network_configuration page
    • This may also prove to be tricky, seeing as that page is already fairly monolithic, and focuses mostly on wired connections

One other consideration (of which I also don't see any progress) is the discussions revolving around moving and breaking down the Network Configuration guides, to separate Wired and Wireless content. With this move I could see such instructions being provided there. In any case, the guide should provide instructions that are:

  • Easy to follow, particularly for new users
  • Puts no emphasis on persisting configurations, as this is not applicable during the install phase
  • Offers options (choice is King)

--CubeTheThird (talk) 23:47, 26 August 2018 (UTC)

The Wireless network configuration link was removed because it cannot be used independently of Network configuration. I propose the following:
  1. Implement Talk:Network configuration#Moving Ethernet-specific sections to Wired subpage. Network configuration currently isn't straightforward. The actual setup instructions are hidden in the Network management section and it's confusing that wireless has a subpage but wired and medium-agnostic configuration are mixed together. See my demo.
  2. Have the Connect to the Internet section only link Network configuration and move the dhcpcd udev rule note there.
  3. Move Wireless network configuration to Network configuration/Wireless and move its iw section to a dedicated article because since recently we also have iwd.
The result should be more user-friendly without duplicating content.
--Larivact (talk) 07:13, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
As for your demo, note that in Talk:Network_configuration#Ongoing_rewrite, Alad said: "ping is one of the very first commands a new user has to run on installation to verify the availability of an internet connection". So unless you intend to direct users from the installation guide directly to the Network configuration#Troubleshooting section, there is still some more thinking to be done... -- Lahwaacz (talk) 07:21, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
Well then let's keep Connect to the Internet and revise it:

The installation image has a udev rule that enables the dhcpcd service for Ethernet network interfaces on boot. If you use Ethernet, verify the connection with ping:

# ping archlinux.org

If the ping fails see Network configuration#Troubleshooting. If you want to use Wi-Fi or a static IP address, stop the dhcpcd service with systemctl stop dhcpcd@interface where the interface name can be tab-completed and proceed with Network configuration.

--Larivact (talk) 08:41, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
That looks good to me. -- Lahwaacz (talk) 14:57, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

ArchWiki link

special:diff/542917 shouldn't that link go Table_of_contents or similar? --Ubone (talk) 13:20, 26 September 2018 (UTC)

Why would it? That link is supposed to specifically explain what ArchWiki is. -- Alad (talk) 13:38, 26 September 2018 (UTC)
isn't the context of the sentence about the tools used in the article and their wiki pages? --Ubone (talk) 14:39, 26 September 2018 (UTC)

/etc/locale.conf needs to be created

The area needing a correction is Installation guide#Localization.

The instructions tell you to set variables in the /etc/locale.conf file, but the file doesn't exist unless the user creates it. If the user needs to create the file, it should be explicitly explained with that language just as it is explained for the hostname file in Installation guide#Network configuration area. "Create the hostname file:"

For Localization, I propose we add the verbiage Create the locale.conf file: /etc/locale.conf Schlitzkrieg (talk) 18:52, 28 September 2018 (UTC)

fstab

The section about generating the fstab with genfstab mentions -U and -L options but not the possibility to use GPT identifiers PARTUUID and PARTLABEL with the '-t' option. Those are described in Persistent block device naming and are a better choice for some users. genfstab itself doesn't explicitly list the GPT options either so IMHO it would be helpful to add this info here.

—This unsigned comment is by Grmat (talk) 15:12, 9 October 2018‎. Please sign your posts with ~~~~!

Format the partitions should use sda2 as an example.

Due to UEFI boot being the future and the standard that should be adopted if your hardware supports it. The section which discusses formatting the hard drive should be changed or a section should be added.The mounting and partitioning instructions should match or offer a section following the general recommended partition map for UEFI available here. Partitioning#UEFI.2FGPT_example_layout --Cozypjsam (talk) 14:55, 25 October 2018 (UTC)

No, it's just an example. --Larivact (talk) 15:39, 25 October 2018 (UTC)
I believe the point here is to make an argument in favor of using a *better* example. If we just say sda2 everywhere, the example works just as well while matching what is far more likely to be real-world uses. Why do we use the example sda1 == rootfs, sda2 == ESP in the installation guide, while on other pages we do the exact reverse? (Keeping in mind that dd is so aptly nicknamed due to the general awkwardness of keeping track of drive letters, why ask for more confusion?)
We could just go the other way and more consistently use sdXY notation for examples, as we do elsewhere in the wiki, and therefore avoid even the pretense of actual commands to run. I think these are the only commands on the page that are actually customizable to the user's setup... -- Eschwartz (talk) 16:20, 25 October 2018 (UTC)
I agree with Eschwartz since its anyways customizable to the users setup.The only downside to that approach is we will have to add a line or two clarifying sdXY should be changed to the users setup. --Cozypjsam (talk) 17:51, 25 October 2018 (UTC)
I don't like either alternative, the first arbitrarily decides on some numbering, and XY requires to clumsily explain what X and Y mean. I'd suggest we finally resolve Talk:Partitioning#Restructuring instead and move some of the tables here. Example partition layouts have little relevance outside of the installation process anyway. -- Alad (talk) 13:25, 8 December 2018 (UTC)
That seems like a good idea, actually. What's the status on that, then? -- Eschwartz (talk) 05:28, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
I didn't go all the way with /dev/sdxy, but just /dev/sdx{1,2,3}. Please check the tables on the guide. -- Alad (talk) 20:27, 27 December 2018 (UTC)
special:diff/560604 the x should be bold as no one will notice it's italic --Ubone (talk) 11:35, 28 December 2018 (UTC)
That depends on the browser, account settings etc. For example, in elinks used on the ISO it's colored red. But it doesn't really matter since every article on the wiki uses italics for pseudo-variables by Help:Style. -- Alad (talk) 13:53, 28 December 2018 (UTC)
I won't argue but very few will use elinks instead of firefox or similar, maybe it's worth revisiting the pseudo-variables Help:Style as it makes sense for words but not very much so for single characters. --Ubone (talk) 17:16, 28 December 2018 (UTC)
Would you notice italics if the letter was capital X? -- Lahwaacz (talk) 20:22, 28 December 2018 (UTC)
I guess that may be better. -- Ubone (talk) 02:26, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
OK, changed. Is that enough to close this discussion? -- Lahwaacz (talk) 21:49, 9 January 2019 (UTC)

Wording in example layout table and size of EFI partition

Regarding Installation_guide#Example_layouts:

  1. even if many users will understand remainder of the device as what is left after size of /dev/sdx1 and /dev/sdx3 are subtsructed from the size of the device, I think the order of the table might be confusing for some. Some people might set /dev/sdx2 to the size of the device minus size of /dev/sdx1, and then stumbled at where from 512 MiB, or larger, are to be found for /dev/sdx3. Either suggest the swap space as /dev/sdx2 and / as /dev/sdx3, or better explain the meaning of the remainder of the device for sdx2.
  2. As for the size of sdx1 for UEFI+GPT, I think 260-550 MiB are better than 260-512 MiB, as per EFI system partition#Create the partition, which is referenced by partition#/boot.

Regid (talk) 14:05, 29 December 2018 (UTC)

I would like to propose an ESP size of 5 MiB (requires fat12 filesystem format), which works fine on any well-designed implementation of the UEFI spec, like my laptop, and elegantly covers the case where the EFI contains only a capable bootloader, which loads the kernel from another (ext4/btrfs/whatever) partition.
Anyway the page you linked makes it quite clear that 512 MiB is fine for any UEFI implementation, and "avoiding confusion" seems to be rather inferior compared to just instructing people to use mkfs.fat -F 32. -- Eschwartz (talk) 23:44, 29 December 2018 (UTC)
I'm not sure I understand your comment. Do you propose to add an mkfs.fat line to Installation guide#Format the partitions for a /boot partition? -- Alad (talk) 08:55, 30 December 2018 (UTC)
I'm saying we already do do so, in EFI system partition#Format the partition where we go into lots of detail about the best way to set up an ESP, why fat32 is not necessary but nevertheless is recommended, and the optimal size for one. None of this elaboration is suitable for the Installation guide, which does not even mention which filesystem type any of the example layouts uses. But we do explicitly state it "must" be fat32 in File systems#Create a file system which we link to immediately after the example layouts. -- Eschwartz (talk) 16:35, 30 December 2018 (UTC)
Using /dev/sdx2 for swap is questionable, it doesn't emphasize that swap is optional nor is it consistent with other articles like dm-crypt/Encrypting an entire system. If you have some better explanation for "remainder of the device" feel free to propose it. -- Alad (talk) 08:55, 30 December 2018 (UTC)
I was trying to say that a user that patitions his HD by following the table might do the following: look at first row in the table, and creates the EFI partition. Than continue with the 2nd row. So he creates a partition at the remainder of his HD. Now he comes to the 3rd row: where will he get 512 MiB, or larger? As for dm-crypt/Encrypting an entire system, I might be wrong thinking that each partition is considered a separate device, so it doesn't matter if the swap space is before, or after, the / partition. Regid (talk) 12:41, 30 December 2018 (UTC)

systemctl

Moved from #Read this first before adding new suggestions. -- Alad (talk) 04:10, 2 January 2019 (UTC)

I think this list of systemctl commands, perhaps the whole paragraph, should be stated in the installation guide itself, not only here. Also, the fact the some systemctl commands do work, according to github reference above, also worth explicit mention. Otherwise, users that do read pages of the wiki might not understand when to expect systemctl control commands, that are spread all over the wiki, to actually work within the chroot environment. Regid (talk) 21:43, 31 December 2018 (UTC)

Mount the file systems

It seems the sentence "Create mount points for any remaining partitions" leads to confusion for some users, because "any remaining partitions" includes partitions with no mount point, i.e. a BIOS boot partition. They will then try to mount this partition to /boot and have a broken installation. Alternatives:

  • Change "mount point" in the table to include the /mnt prefix.
"mount point" can both mean the mount point in the installed system, and in the live environment. Since Installation guide#Mount the file systems mentions "create mount points" I guess latter makes sense.
Installation_guide#Partition_the_disks however mentions "One partition for the root directory /."
  • Remove the instructions on mounting /boot.
Not ideal since EFI system partition lacks any reference to /mnt.

-- Alad (talk) 15:41, 5 January 2019 (UTC)

I suppose we could recommend using /mnt/bootloader for this, just to reinforce the idea that no, this is not /boot. And possibly also mention when creating mount points, "for any partitions that are meant to be mounted". This would also exclude swap, but I guess that is a lot less common to confuse... -- Eschwartz (talk) 03:47, 6 January 2019 (UTC)
Should be addressed by [15] -- Alad (talk) 03:14, 15 January 2019 (UTC)
Looks good to me. -- Eschwartz (talk) 03:23, 15 January 2019 (UTC)