Difference between revisions of "Talk:Installation guide"

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m (Add a TIP under Post-installation: fix indent)
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:::That's a bit of an issue since the Installation guide assumes users have read [[Help:Reading]]... though I'm not unaware of this, see e.g. [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Installation_guide&diff=508490&oldid=508486] -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 09:55, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
 
:::That's a bit of an issue since the Installation guide assumes users have read [[Help:Reading]]... though I'm not unaware of this, see e.g. [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Installation_guide&diff=508490&oldid=508486] -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 09:55, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
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::::Actually the purpose of [[Help:Reading]] is to tell users how to read the page / article but not what can be done after Installation. Here Tip is intended to suggest what to do after installation. i.e. Post-installation.
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::::[[User:Amish|Amish]] ([[User talk:Amish|talk]]) 12:15, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
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:I'd word it less imperatively:
 
:I'd word it less imperatively:

Revision as of 12:15, 11 June 2018

Read this first before adding new suggestions

  • systemd tools such as hostnamectl, timedatectl and localectl do not work in the installation chroot environment, so please do not propose to use them in the guide unless you can prove that they have been made to work also in that case. See [1], [2], [3] and [4] for some past discussions about this issue.
  • localectl list-keymaps does not work due to bug FS#46725. For the chosen replacement command, see [5].
  • localhost must be set explicitely in /etc/hosts, as it is otherwise resolved over the network. See FS#56684.

-- The ArchWiki Administrators 22:17, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

pacman-key --populate

[Moved from Talk:Beginners' guide. -- Alad (talk) 20:38, 12 July 2016 (UTC)]

Reference: https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Beginners%27_guide&diff=next&oldid=411670 I tried to install Archlinux on my new computer and got stuck. Only using the pacman-key --populate archlinux helped me. I think I am not the only one having this problem. But why did you undo it? —This unsigned comment is by Sandstorm (talk) 20:38, 12 December 2015‎. Please sign your posts with ~~~~!

This command is already run for the new system (by installation of archlinux-keyring), so running it by hand shouldn't be required for most users. Of course, things can go wrong (how old was the ISO you used to install the system?), but that belongs in Troubleshooting sections of the respective articles, which are linked at the beginning of the guide. -- Alad (talk) 19:52, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
I had downloaded the ISO just yesterday, minutes before the install. Only that command installed the keys. Probably I should open a bug if you can confirm the issue?
Did you have to run pacman-key after, or before pacstrap? And do you recall what the error messages said exactly? (See also FS#31286) -- Alad (talk) 20:15, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
I had to run after pacstrap. As far as I remember, pacstrap stopped after trying to download the keys. The error message was something like shown in this forum post: https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=165367
Well then, as you suggested, I'd open a bug report. -- Alad (talk) 20:34, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
Done. Could you check if the description is good. I could not find an appropriate category, so I though Packages:Core might be the closest one. https://bugs.archlinux.org/task/47351 --Sandstorm (talk) 20:48, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
Thanks, the description looks OK. If the category e.a is not right, User:Scimmia should fix it. :P -- Alad (talk) 13:59, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
Hmm, looks like it was closed with "Works for me" ... not very enlightening. All I can suggest is to further improve on Pacman/Package signing and related articles, and recheck if they're accessible enough from the Beginners' guide. -- Alad (talk) 21:59, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

Switch to systemd-networkd

Next ISOs may use systemd-networkd instead of dhcpcd, see [6] -- Alad (talk) 10:26, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

Link to the German version

Instead of de:Arch Install Scripts you could choose de:Anleitung für Einsteiger it means "Beginner's Guid" and is a very detailed artikel for very new arch users and the future experts.

Thank you, done. -- Kynikos (talk) 16:31, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
This was already proposed last year and rejected: [7]. I don't see what has changed since then. If someone adds me as admin to the german wiki or changes the protection settings, I can update de:Arch Install Scripts as required. -- Alad (talk) 18:13, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
I see, I didn't remember that discussion so I've reverted the change, hopefully you'll make it to update the translation, let's leave this open until the problem is solved, otherwise this kind of suggestion will keep appearing recurrently. -- Kynikos (talk) 17:53, 7 February 2018 (UTC)

Network configuration

The newly installed environment has no network connection activated by default. See Network configuration#Network management.
For Wireless configuration, install the iw and wpa_supplicant packages, as well as needed firmware packages. Optionally install dialog for usage of wifi-menu.

The Network configuration section is rubbish. It doesn't explain that wifi-menu is part of netctl and telling users to install both iw and wpa_supplicant is plainly wrong. I would replace it with a DRY "See Network configuration." but maintainers aren't trusted to edit the Installation guide. --Larivact (talk) 17:09, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

If maintainers go on the talk page and plainly state "this section is rubbish" while indicating they would push their change without discussion, then no, I wouldn't trust maintainers with editing this central article. -- Alad (talk) 21:09, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
I would agree linking appropriate article would suit more than current section, given deprecation of Beginners' Guide for similar reasons.
It is not that maintainers aren't trusted, but that MediaWiki doesn't allow specifying what user groups can perform edits, the choice is only among all, only auto-confirmed or only admins [8], plus we need to discuss edits to central wiki articles beforehand anyway [9]. -- Svito (talk) 20:03, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
I've wanted to create additional groups for a while now (should be simple with LocalSettings.php published). Anyone interested should be able to write a patch and send it to the admins. -- Alad (talk) 21:09, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
Indeed "rubbish" wasn't a very wise choice of a word, a lot of volunteer effort has been put to get to the current state of the wiki, of course everything can always be improved.
In particular, the history of that section basically is Beginners' guide#Network configuration > [10] > [11].
I'd be in favor of simply restoring a similar state to [12], i.e. I'd link Network configuration but also Wireless network configuration directly, and drop the rest of the details.
-- Kynikos (talk) 16:19, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
[13] With the recent changes to Network configuration article, we may make similar changes to Installation guide#Connect to the Internet. Even a specific link to Wireless network configuration should no longer be required, since you need to follow Network configuration#DHCP anyway and Wireless is linked from Network configuration#Setup. Proposed wording:
The installation image enables the dhcpcd daemon on boot for wired network devices. The connection may be checked with:
# ping archlinux.org
If no connection is available, stop the dhcpcd service:
# systemctl stop dhcpcd@<TAB>
Proceed with instructions in Network configuration.
If that's a bit too short we might expand the ping(8) example, compare expansion template in Network_configuration#Ping. --Alad (talk) 16:38, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
I actually prefer the current style with the systemctl example, using the ic template and a spelled-out instruction to press Tab. I don't see the need to expand further on ping directly in this page.
On a second thought with respect to my previous post, I'm fine with dropping direct links to Wireless network configuration and only point to Network configuration as proposed in OP, i.e. also in Installation guide#Network configuration (I think we should be consistent between the two network-configuration sections).
Another idea, we could merge Installation guide#Hostname into Installation guide#Network configuration now, since Hostname lands in Network configuration anyway, and even if that section is moved to DNS configuration, it's still all network setup.
-- Kynikos (talk) 15:08, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
I've removed the Wireless network configuration link from both sections. As it stands it cannot be used independently of Network configuration anyway. It's the devil or the blue sea - when configuring a simple wireless connection, users have to wade through pages of possibly unrelated information in Network configuration or be confused by missing steps in Wireless network configuration. Sometimes I believe that things would be much easier if our user base didn't value "choice" as much.
About the systemctl example, after all this time I'm still not sure on the Tab instructions. We never finished the relevant discussion in Help_talk:Reading and the steps to fill in (choosing the right ethernet adapter, tab-completing it and pressing return) are not necessarily obvious.
About Installation guide#Hostname, I'm fine with moving this section under Installation guide#Network configuration. -- Alad (talk) 23:22, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
I've merged #Hostname into #Network_configuration.
I hear you about the complexity of the network configuration pages, but it's a huge topic, I'll leave it to Talk:Network configuration.
I'm going to reply to Help talk:Reading#Mention tab completion.3F, but regarding this instance I propose the following:
If no connection is available, stop the dhcpcd service with systemctl stop dhcpcd@interface; you can tab-complete the interface name. Then proceed to configure the network as described in Network configuration.
-- Kynikos (talk) 15:49, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
I'd like "where the interface name can be tab-completed" better, but that's just a detail. -- Lahwaacz (talk) 16:33, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
Implemented [14] -- Alad (talk) 16:50, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
How about we add a sentence to Installation_guide#Network_configuration describing how to restore use of dhcpcd as done on the installation medium? That way if the connection already worked on installation people only need a brief look at dhcpcd. -- Alad (talk) 15:48, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
I think that would just hide the possibility of choice from users. Maybe just say that dhcpcd is not enabled on the installed system without recommending anything. -- Lahwaacz (talk) 17:34, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
May I suggest the following edit to this section:
If no connection is available, or you are using a wireless device, stop the dhcpcd service with ... Tourian (talk) 04:45, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
That's already mentioned in the relevant section: Installation_guide#Connect_to_the_Internet. dhcpcd is not enabled by default in the installed system so there is nothing to stop in Installation_guide#Network_configuration. -- Lahwaacz (talk) 06:33, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
I guess the proposed wording is indeed for Installation_guide#Connect_to_the_Internet, which as it stands has no mention of wireless devices (only implied through lack of connection) -- Alad (talk) 10:05, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
Yes, it is not explicit. The wording on 20 May 2018 at the end of Installation_guide#Connect_to_the_Internet was "Proceed with Network configuration for wired devices or Wireless network configuration for wireless devices", with the reference to wireless devices removed after the decision to send those on wireless connections to Network configuration. Therefore, how about starting this section with, "If you are using a wireless network device, proceed with Network Configuration. For wired devices, the installation image enables the dhcpcd daemon on boot. The connection..." and leave the rest as it is. -- Tourian (talk) 14:04, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
I perhaps prefer the first wording you suggested, since we've always told people to disable the wired dhcpcd even when using a wireless connection, to rule out any possible conflicts. I don't feel strongly about this however.. -- Alad (talk) 16:03, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

Why should a static IP be preferred over 127.0.1.1 in /etc/hosts?

"If the system has a permanent IP address, it should be used instead of 127.0.1.1."

I think the ArchWiki should not just say do X but also why. Alad as you added this, perhaps you can explain?--Larivact (talk) 15:14, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

In Network_configuration#Local hostname resolution: "For a system with a permanent IP address, that permanent IP address should be used instead of 127.0.1.1." -- Lahwaacz (talk) 06:48, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
First appearance in our wiki, cited source, also discussion. -- Kynikos (talk) 10:26, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Add a TIP under Post-installation

Under Installation_guide#Post-installation, it may be a good idea to add a TIP like this for new (or even existing) users:

Tip: Create an account at ArchWiki and add General recommendations page to your Watchlist to automatically get alerts for new recommendation or changes to existing recommendations. You may also add other Wiki pages of your liking to the Watchlist so as to always stay up-to-date with them.

-- Amish (talk) 01:19, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

It's certainly an interesting suggestion. I'm not sure if it's in the scope of the installation guide however; maybe Help:Reading is better suited? -- Alad (talk) 21:26, 10 June 2018 (UTC)
Installation guide would always be read by those installing Arch Linux. But not necessarily Help:Reading (today is first time I read it in 4-5 years with Arch Linux). So Installation guide will bring in more awareness and more involvement of users.
That's a bit of an issue since the Installation guide assumes users have read Help:Reading... though I'm not unaware of this, see e.g. [15] -- Alad (talk) 09:55, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
Actually the purpose of Help:Reading is to tell users how to read the page / article but not what can be done after Installation. Here Tip is intended to suggest what to do after installation. i.e. Post-installation.
Amish (talk) 12:15, 11 June 2018 (UTC)


I'd word it less imperatively:
Tip: You can stay up to date with ArchWiki articles by creating an account and adding articles of interest to your Watchlist.
--Larivact (talk) 04:47, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
Sounds good to me. -- Alad (talk) 09:55, 11 June 2018 (UTC)