Difference between revisions of "Talk:Installation guide"

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== Read this first before add new suggestion ==
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== Read this first before adding new suggestions ==
* Point of this page is to ''not'' become another Beginner's guide. It's meant to be a ''concise'' checklist of things to be done. So detailed install instruction should go to [[Beginners' Guide]].
 
* If there is something to discuss which should also affect the Beginner's guide, then do it on [[Talk:Beginners%27_Guide/Installation]]. An advanced user will find this page less bloated and easier to read, so let's KISS.
 
  
== update "Configure the bootloader" part ==
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* systemd tools such as ''hostnamectl'', ''timedatectl'' and ''localectl'' [https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/798#issuecomment-126568596 do not work] in the installation chroot environment, so please do not propose to use them in the guide unless you can prove that they have been made to work also in that case. See [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Talk:Beginners%27_guide&oldid=388727#General_problems], [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Talk:Beginners%27_guide&oldid=404695#Replace_commands_with_their_systemd_equivalents], [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Talk:Beginners%27_guide&oldid=418662#Utilizing_systemd_tools] and [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Talk:Installation_guide&oldid=434985#change_configuration_system_from_old_way_to_new_way.28using_systemd_commands.29] for some past discussions about this issue.
to install grub-bios: install guide say:
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* {{ic|localectl list-keymaps}} does not work due to bug {{Bug|46725}}. For the chosen replacement command, see [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Talk:Beginners%27_guide&oldid=435044#localectl].
 +
* {{ic|localhost}} must be set explicitely in {{ic|/etc/hosts}}, as it is otherwise resolved over the network. See {{Bug|56684}}.
 +
-- [[ArchWiki:Administrators|The ArchWiki Administrators]] 22:17, 2 September 2016 (UTC)
 +
__TOC__
  
''Configure the bootloader: refer back to the appropriate article from the bootloader installation section.''
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== pacman-key --populate ==
  
at [[Installation_Guide#Configure_system]]
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:''[Moved from [[Talk:Beginners' guide]]. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 20:38, 12 July 2016 (UTC)]''
  
At this point I did:
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Reference: https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Beginners%27_guide&diff=next&oldid=411670
  grub-mkconfig > /boot/grub/grub.cfg
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I tried to install Archlinux on my new computer and got stuck. Only using the {{ic|pacman-key --populate archlinux}} helped me. I think I am not the only one having this problem. But why did you undo it? {{Unsigned|20:38, 12 December 2015‎|Sandstorm}}
 +
:This command is already run for the new system (by installation of archlinux-keyring), so running it by hand shouldn't be required for most users. Of course, things can go wrong (how old was the ISO you used to install the system?), but that belongs in Troubleshooting sections of the respective articles, which are linked at the beginning of the guide. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 19:52, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
 +
::I had downloaded the ISO just yesterday, minutes before the install. Only that command installed the keys. Probably I should open a bug if you can confirm the issue?
 +
:::Did you have to run pacman-key after, or before pacstrap? And do you recall what the error messages said exactly? (See also {{Bug|31286}}) -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 20:15, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
 +
::::I had to run after pacstrap. As far as I remember, pacstrap stopped after trying to download the keys. The error message was something like shown in this forum post: https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=165367
 +
:::::Well then, as you suggested, I'd open a bug report. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 20:34, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
 +
::::::Done. Could you check if the description is good. I could not find an appropriate category, so I though Packages:Core might be the closest one. https://bugs.archlinux.org/task/47351 --[[User:Sandstorm|Sandstorm]] ([[User talk:Sandstorm|talk]]) 20:48, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
 +
:::::::Thanks, the description looks OK. If the category e.a is not right, [[Special:Contributions/Scimmia|User:Scimmia]] should fix it. :P -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 13:59, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
  
then:
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::::::::Hmm, looks like it was closed with "Works for me" ... not very enlightening. All I can suggest is to further improve on [[Pacman/Package signing]] and related articles, and recheck if they're accessible enough from the Beginners' guide. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 21:59, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
  grub-install /dev/sda
 
  
--[[User:Nilzao|Nilzao]]
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== Link to the German version ==
  
:: I agree, although I use grub-mkconfig -o /boot/grub/grub.cfg, these two commands are enough to install grub on most machines so might as well be part of the actual guide. As with all other commands, problems or alternative configurations can be explained at the linked detailed pages. [[User:Spider.007|Spider.007]] ([[User talk:Spider.007|talk]]) 11:48, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
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Instead of [[de:Arch Install Scripts]] you could choose [[de:Anleitung für Einsteiger]] it means "Beginner's Guid" and is a very
 +
detailed artikel for very new arch users and the future experts.
  
: I suggest to add a tip to follow instructions in https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Grub2#Install_to_440-byte_MBR_boot_code_region - I must do it at every installation --[[User:Loper|Loper]]
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:Thank you, [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Installation_guide&type=revision&diff=509961&oldid=508505 done]. -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 16:31, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
  
:: Instead of the link suggested by Loper, I'd go for the following: https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Grub#Install_grub-bios_boot_files
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::This was already proposed last year and rejected: [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Talk:Installation_guide&oldid=466950#Suggesting_different_page_for_German_translation]. I don't see what has changed since then. If someone adds me as admin to the german wiki or changes the protection settings, I can update [[de:Arch Install Scripts]] as required. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 18:13, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
:: As there are several places to install grub, might as well show that. This is something that needs to be fixed sometime soon as there are instructions to install grub2 after chrooting. These instructions link to the '#Configure the system' section, which fails to mention installation of the bootloader. This is where I suggest posting the link.
 
:: --[[User:Ryeguy146|Ryeguy146]] ([[User talk:Ryeguy146|talk]]) 12:57, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
 
  
I just went through an Arch installation following this guide. Please at least mention the need to initialize the MBR with a link to the appropriate section in the Grub article. It was frustrating to reboot to see an "Operating system not found" message. --[[User:Takaitra|Takaitra]] ([[User talk:Takaitra|talk]]) 16:24, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
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:::I see, I didn't remember that discussion so I've reverted the change, hopefully you'll make it to update the translation, let's leave this open until the problem is solved, otherwise this kind of suggestion will keep appearing recurrently. -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 17:53, 7 February 2018 (UTC)
  
== Link Elinks to wiki ==
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== Network configuration ==
  
Just read that elinks is included on install iso, maybe add an alias/script to allow loading of wiki guide installation guide? --[[User:Mr Green|Mr Green]]
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:The newly installed environment has no network connection activated by default. See [[Network configuration#Network management]].
:It's included in the /root directory. [[User:Thestinger|thestinger]] ([[User talk:Thestinger|talk]]) 18:08, 27 October 2012 (UTC)
 
  
== Change section "Connect to the internet" ==
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:For [[Wireless configuration]], [[install]] the {{Pkg|iw}} and {{Pkg|wpa_supplicant}} packages, as well as needed [[Wireless#Installing driver/firmware|firmware packages]]. Optionally install {{Pkg|dialog}} for usage of ''wifi-menu''.
  
Since the installation guide is now part of the iso image, I'd like to see a few references to the manpages of the necessary tools here, since you cannot open the network related wiki pages. Maybe something like this would be acceptable:
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The Network configuration section is rubbish. It doesn't explain that wifi-menu is part of [[netctl]] and telling users to install both iw ''and'' wpa_supplicant is plainly wrong. I would replace it with a DRY "See [[Network configuration]]." but maintainers aren't trusted to edit the [[Installation guide]]. --[[User:Larivact|Larivact]] ([[User talk:Larivact|talk]]) 17:09, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
  Assuming a wired ethernet connection, running dhclient or dhcpcd is
 
  sufficient to get a lease. Otherwise set up the connection manually
 
  using ip add, wpa_supplicant (WLAN with WPA), pppoe-setup (DSL), etc.
 
  You can also create and use netcfg profiles. Read more in the manpages:
 
  ip(8), wpa_supplicant(8), pppoe(8), netcfg(8), netcfg-profiles(5)
 
A reminder to install the packages for the internet connection in the pacstrap section would also be nice. -- [[User:progandy|progandy]]
 
  
== Suggestions to update this guide as part of ISO ==
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:If maintainers go on the talk page and plainly state "this section is rubbish" while indicating they would push their change without discussion, then no, I wouldn't trust maintainers with editing this central article. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 21:09, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
Since this guide is now being included as 'install.txt' in the ISO, it might be beneficial to incorporate the following changes:
 
* Entirely remove the '''1. Download''' section and move it to the Download area of the archlinux.org page. This document here is about installing, not downloading, checking, burning discs or dd'ing. The majority of users reading this have likely already booted up the install medium.
 
* Begin or end the document by mentioning the new archlinux(7) man page which explains the location of important system configuration files
 
# man archlinux
 
* Slightly expand the '''6. Connect to the internet''' section to include the most basic examples of setting up a private network using a dynamic and static IP address. (Right now it's only a single paragraph/line.) It's a vital installation step and should actually be moved to the top as one of the first actions during system setup. This fact should be emphasized.
 
  
Obtain dynamic IP
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::Nah, [[User:Larivact|Larivact]] is right. I had to go to a completely different site to figure out that wifi-menu even exists. It should include the line: "For supported wireless devices run {{ic|wifi-menu}} to set up the network". Would have saved me a couple hours. I genuinely don't understand why you would include the tool, but have no reference to it (and please don't take this as an indication that you should just remove the tool). [[User:Klaymen|Klaymen]] ([[User talk:Klaymen|talk]]) 02:38, 24 December 2018 (UTC)
# dhcpcd
 
  
Set static IP
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:I would agree linking appropriate article would suit more than current section, given deprecation of Beginners' Guide for similar reasons.
# ip link set dev eth0 up
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:It is not that maintainers aren't trusted, but that MediaWiki doesn't allow specifying what user groups can perform edits, the choice is only among all, only auto-confirmed or only admins [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=ArchWiki_talk:Contributing&oldid=512883], plus we need to discuss edits to central wiki articles beforehand anyway [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=User_talk:Svito&oldid=511693]. -- [[User:Svito|Svito]] ([[User talk:Svito|talk]]) 20:03, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
# ip addr add 192.168.1.2/24 dev eth0
 
# ip route add default via 192.168.1.1
 
# echo "nameserver 8.8.8.8" >> /etc/resolv.conf
 
  
--[[User:MajorTom|MajorTom]]
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::I've wanted to create additional groups for a while now (should be simple with LocalSettings.php published). Anyone interested should be able to write a patch and send it to the admins. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 21:09, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
  
:* I can agree to all your suggestions, I wonder why no one is modifying the wiki. Internet connection setup is the most important part and should be covered more extensively. In addition to your changes, mention the manpages and configuration templates for netcfg and pppoe-setup/connect. The boot medium must at least contain easy accesible information in order to read all pages referenced in the installation guide. There should also be mentioned that elinks is installed and can be used to access the wiki. --[[User:Progandy|Progandy]] ([[User talk:Progandy|talk]]) 21:50, 24 August 2012 (UTC)
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:Indeed "rubbish" wasn't a very wise choice of a word, a lot of volunteer effort has been put to get to the current state of the wiki, of course everything can always be improved.
 +
:In particular, the history of that section basically is [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Beginners%27_guide&oldid=446855#Network_configuration Beginners' guide#Network configuration] > [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Installation_guide&diff=442466&oldid=442463] > [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Installation_guide&diff=442470&oldid=442469].
 +
:I'd be in favor of simply restoring a similar state to [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Installation_guide&oldid=442463#Network_configuration], i.e. I'd link [[Network configuration]] but also [[Wireless network configuration]] directly, and drop the rest of the details.
 +
:-- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 16:19, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
  
:* The {{ic|dhcpcd}} network daemon is started automatically: [http://www.archlinux.org/news/install-media-20120804-available/], [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Beginners%27_Guide#Network_setup], so there's no reason to start it manually. --[[User:DSpider|DSpider]] ([[User talk:DSpider|talk]]) 08:17, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
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::[https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Installation_guide&diff=522153&oldid=521933] With the recent changes to [[Network configuration]] article, we may make similar changes to [[Installation guide#Connect to the Internet]]. Even a specific link to [[Wireless network configuration]] should no longer be required, since you need to follow [[Network configuration#DHCP]] anyway and [[Wireless]] is linked from [[Network configuration#Setup]]. Proposed wording:
  
== Keymaps ==
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:::The installation image enables the [[dhcpcd]] daemon on boot for [https://git.archlinux.org/archiso.git/tree/configs/releng/airootfs/etc/udev/rules.d/81-dhcpcd.rules wired] network devices. The connection may be checked with:
 +
::: {{ic|# ping archlinux.org}}
 +
:::If no connection is available, [[stop]] the ''dhcpcd'' service:
 +
::: {{ic|# systemctl stop dhcpcd@<TAB>}}
 +
:::Proceed with instructions in [[Network configuration]].
  
As this guide mentions the loading of keymaps using loadkeys there should be at least a very small example about /etc/vconsole.conf
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::If that's a bit too short we might expand the {{man|8|ping}} example, compare expansion template in [[Network_configuration#Ping]]. --[[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 16:38, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
  
Either not talk about keymaps or tell how to make it correct. When this is used as a checklist, the setup of the keymap should not be missing.
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:::I actually prefer the current style with the systemctl example, using the ic template and a spelled-out instruction to press Tab. I don't see the need to expand further on ping directly in this page.
: [[KEYMAP]] page link added. Close. -- [[User:Fengchao|Fengchao]] ([[User talk:Fengchao|talk]]) 04:03, 4 September 2012 (UTC)
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:::On a second thought with respect to my previous post, I'm fine with dropping direct links to [[Wireless network configuration]] and only point to [[Network configuration]] as proposed in OP, i.e. also in [[Installation guide#Network configuration]] (I think we should be consistent between the two network-configuration sections).
 +
:::Another idea, we could merge [[Installation guide#Hostname]] into [[Installation guide#Network configuration]] now, since [[Hostname]] lands in [[Network configuration]] anyway, and even if that section is moved to [[DNS configuration]], it's still all network setup.
 +
:::-- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 15:08, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
  
:: The section on keymaps and fonts links only to the KEYMAP page. An additional link regarding setting default console font should be added to:
+
::::I've removed the [[Wireless network configuration]] link from both sections. As it stands it cannot be used independently of [[Network configuration]] anyway. It's the devil or the blue sea - when configuring a simple wireless connection, users have to wade through pages of possibly unrelated information in [[Network configuration]] or be confused by missing steps in [[Wireless network configuration]]. Sometimes I believe that things would be much easier if our user base didn't value "choice" as much.
https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Fonts#Console_fonts
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::::About the ''systemctl'' example, after all this time I'm still not sure on the {{ic|Tab}} instructions. We never finished the relevant discussion in [[Help_talk:Reading]] and the steps to fill in (choosing the right ethernet adapter, tab-completing it and pressing return) are not necessarily obvious.
 +
::::About [[Installation guide#Hostname]], I'm fine with moving this section under [[Installation guide#Network configuration]]. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 23:22, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
  
== add a step: setting the clock ==
+
:::::I've merged #Hostname into #Network_configuration.
 +
:::::I hear you about the complexity of the network configuration pages, but it's a huge topic, I'll leave it to [[Talk:Network configuration]].
 +
:::::I'm going to reply to [[Help talk:Reading#Mention tab completion.3F]], but regarding this instance I propose the following:
 +
::::::If no connection is available, [[stop]] the ''dhcpcd'' service with {{ic|systemctl stop dhcpcd@''interface''}}; you can [[Wikipedia:Command-line_completion|tab-complete]] the {{ic|''interface''}} name. Then proceed to configure the network as described in [[Network configuration]].
 +
:::::-- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 15:49, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
  
Lots of things care about the clock being more-or-less correct, e.g. pacman-key will not work at all if the clock is too far out. Lots of brand new computers come with the clock set to something in the distant past, which causes weird problems during the install. [[User:Thetrivialstuff|Thetrivialstuff]] ([[User talk:Thetrivialstuff|talk]]) 23:14, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
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::::::I'd like "where the {{ic|interface}} name can be [[Wikipedia:Command-line_completion|tab-completed]]" better, but that's just a detail. -- [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 16:33, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
  
== pacman-key --init / populate? ==
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:::::::Implemented [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Installation_guide&diff=523411&oldid=523346] -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 16:50, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
  
Isn't this a required step? pacstrap does not seem to do it on its own. [[User:Thetrivialstuff|Thetrivialstuff]] ([[User talk:Thetrivialstuff|talk]]) 23:15, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
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:::::::How about we add a sentence to [[Installation_guide#Network_configuration]] describing how to restore use of ''dhcpcd'' as done on the installation medium? That way if the connection already worked on installation people only need a brief look at [[dhcpcd]]. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 15:48, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
:Edit: Ah; I think this was related to the "set the clock" step -- I see that there is a pacman keyring init in the boot sequence of the latest media, but it (silently?) fails if the local clock is wrong.
 
::https://mailman.archlinux.org/pipermail/arch-releng/2012-July/002708.html --[[User:Bluewind|Bluewind]] ([[User talk:Bluewind|talk]]) 09:10, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
 
  
== Link to UEFI Bootloaders page ==
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::::::::I think that would just hide the possibility of choice from users. Maybe just say that dhcpcd is not enabled on the installed system without recommending anything. -- [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 17:34, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
  
Instead of telling the user to install GRUB(2) alone in case of UEFI, direct the reader to the [[UEFI_Bootloaders]] page which provides info about all the UEFI bootloaders capable of booting linux kernel. Also how can I edit the guide, there is no "edit" tab shown on top of the page. Is this page restricted to few authors only? -- [[User:The.ridikulus.rat|Keshav P R]] ([[User talk:The.ridikulus.rat|talk]]) 15:31, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
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:::::::May I suggest the following edit to this section:
 +
::::::::If no connection is available, or you are using a wireless device, [[stop]] the ''dhcpcd'' service with ... [[User:Tourian|Tourian]] ([[User talk:Tourian|talk]]) 04:45, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
 +
:::::::::That's already mentioned in the relevant section: [[Installation_guide#Connect_to_the_Internet]]. ''dhcpcd'' is not enabled by default in the installed system so there is nothing to stop in [[Installation_guide#Network_configuration]]. -- [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 06:33, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
 +
::::::::::I guess the proposed wording is indeed for [[Installation_guide#Connect_to_the_Internet]], which as it stands has no mention of wireless devices (only implied through lack of connection) -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 10:05, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
 +
:::::::::::Yes, it is not explicit. The wording on 20 May 2018 at the end of [[Installation_guide#Connect_to_the_Internet]] was "Proceed with [[Network configuration]] for wired devices or [[Wireless network configuration]] for wireless devices", with the reference to wireless devices removed after the decision to send those on wireless connections to [[Network configuration]]. Therefore, how about starting this section with, "If you are using a wireless network device, proceed with [[Network Configuration]]. For wired devices, the installation image enables the [[dhcpcd]] daemon on boot. The connection..." and leave the rest as it is. -- [[User:Tourian|Tourian]] ([[User talk:Tourian|talk]]) 14:04, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
  
==Styling==
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::::::::::::I perhaps prefer the first wording you suggested, since we've always told people to disable the wired dhcpcd even when using a wireless connection, to rule out any possible conflicts. I don't feel strongly about this however.. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 16:03, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
  
* The "'''Install a bootloader'''" section should be a bullet point above "Configure the bootloader: refer back to the appropriate ...", no need to have them separate. Using pacstrap to install the bootloader just seems silly (especially since they were also merged in the Beginner's Guide). Also, commands after {{ic|arch-chroot}} would look better if they were indented with "<nowiki>: {{bc|# <command>}}</nowiki>", kinda like how {{ic|# pacman-key -v <iso-file>.sig}} is at the beginning of the article. Would look much cleaner. --[[User:DSpider|DSpider]] ([[User talk:DSpider|talk]]) 16:33, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
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: In [[Installation_guide#Network_configuration]], can we append the introduction of [[Network_configuration#Network_management]]? Currently new users are pointed to a page that is comprehensive, but unhelpful as a part of the installation guide. --[[User:Mpan|Mpan]] ([[User talk:Mpan|talk]]) 00:38, 8 February 2019 (UTC)
  
==Proposed changes to Beginners' Guide and link to Post-Installation==
+
== Why should a static IP be preferred over 127.0.1.1 in /etc/hosts? ==
Some major changes are under discussion in [[Talk:Beginners'_Guide#Guide_restructuring]]: some of them would require adjustments to this very guide, see for example [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Talk%3ABeginners%27_Guide&diff=224578&oldid=224567 this post].
 
  
Please reply in the linked discussion, '''not''' here.
+
"If the system has a permanent IP address, it should be used instead of 127.0.1.1."
  
-- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 12:15, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
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I think the ArchWiki should not just say do X but also why. [[User:Alad|Alad]] as you added this, perhaps you can explain?--[[User:Larivact|Larivact]] ([[User talk:Larivact|talk]]) 15:14, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
  
:I've added the steps in [[Beginners' Guide/Post-Installation]] to this guide, which now directly sends users to [[Beginners' Guide/Extra]].
+
:In [[Network_configuration#Local hostname resolution]]: "For a system with a permanent IP address, that permanent IP address should be used instead of 127.0.1.1." -- [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 06:48, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
:If however [[Talk:Beginners' Guide#Guide restructuring]] will be implemented as planned, the [[Beginners' Guide]] will have a slightly different installation procedure than this guide, unless this one is updated too.
 
:-- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 14:08, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
 
  
::Shouldn't the information be added ''before'' "Unmount leftovers and reboot" ? By the way, the title should mention rebooting, because most likely a kernel update was involved. --[[User:DSpider|DSpider]] ([[User talk:DSpider|talk]]) 14:41, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
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::[https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Network_configuration&diff=340138&oldid=333485 First] appearance in our wiki, cited [https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/debian-reference/ch05.en.html#_the_hostname_resolution source], also [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Talk:Network_configuration&oldid=360328#Hostname_resolution discussion]. -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 10:26, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
  
:::The link to Post-Installation was the last step of the guide, so that's the line I've replaced with the instructions from Post-Installation.
+
== Add a TIP under Post-installation ==
:::About rebooting in case of a kernel upgrade, I don't think it's necessary to state that since this guide is aimed at experienced users.
 
:::In any case, any reordering or modification of the various steps should better be approved by a Developer, and probably the forum or the mailing lists are better places than this talk page to involve them in such discussions.
 
:::-- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 14:59, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
 
  
::::Yeah, but at this point, you were instructed to reboot. In order to edit {{ic|pacman.conf}}, you need to mount the root partition. And to update your system, you need to chroot into it. It would be better if "Unmount leftovers" was renamed "Unmount leftovers and reboot", and added at the end (before the suggestion to read the instructions from '''Extra'''). --[[User:DSpider|DSpider]] ([[User talk:DSpider|talk]]) 15:07, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
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Under [[Installation_guide#Post-installation]], it may be a good idea to add a TIP like this for new (or even existing) users:
 +
{{Tip|Create an account at [https://wiki.archlinux.org/ ArchWiki] and add [[General recommendations]] page to your [[Special:Watchlist|Watchlist]] to automatically get alerts for new recommendation or changes to existing recommendations. You may also add other Wiki pages of your liking to the Watchlist so as to always stay up-to-date with them.}}
 +
-- [[User:Amish|Amish]] ([[User talk:Amish|talk]]) 01:19, 10 June 2018 (UTC)
  
:::::You are still instructed to reboot, aren't you? The "Unmount leftovers" section currently tells you to ''"reboot and then login into the new system with the root account"''. In the "new system", the correct partition is already mounted at /.
+
:It's certainly an interesting suggestion. I'm not sure if it's in the scope of the installation guide however; maybe [[Help:Reading]] is better suited? -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 21:26, 10 June 2018 (UTC)
:::::Whether or not configuring pacman, updating the system and adding a user would be better done in the chroot before rebooting, it's something that should be discussed with a Developer. I too think that it would make more sense, requiring one less reboot in case of a kernel upgrade.
 
:::::-- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 15:18, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
 
:::::Renaming "Unmount leftovers" to "Unmount leftovers and reboot" is safe anyway, so I've done that. -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 15:37, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
 
:::::@DSpider: you're quite active on the forum, why don't you propose your idea there? I think it would be interesting to discuss it. -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 14:11, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
 
:::::Ok, after reading [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Talk%3AInstallation_Guide&diff=226203&oldid=225070 this] I realize that maybe I haven't been clear enough, so I'll try to explain everything more thoroughly.
 
:::::#The current procedure makes you [[Installation_Guide#Configure_the_system|configure the system]] in the '''chroot''' environment from the '''live''' system.
 
:::::#Then, still in the '''live''' system, it [[Installation_Guide#Unmount and reboot|asks]] you to '''exit''' the chroot, unmount the partitions for the '''new''' system, '''reboot''' and login into the '''new''' system. Now, I refuse to write more explicitly in the guide that you should boot into the '''new''' system, and not again in the '''live''' system, in order to login into the new system.
 
:::::#Since you are now into the '''new''' system ('''not''' the live system), the root partition is mounted at {{ic|/}}, not at {{ic|/mnt/}}, so you should be able to configure pacman, update the system and add a user wihtout chrooting. Now, if you've tested the procedure and really noticed that for some obscure-to-me reason you still need to chroot to /mnt in order to do those operations, please ask for clarifications in the forum because I wouldn't be able to answer any more.
 
:::::Last thing, and I think this is the 3rd or 4th time I write it, I '''agree''' with you that configuring pacman etc. could easily be done in the chroot environment at step 1, but you should '''propose''' that change '''in the forum''' first, since it would be a change in the official installation procedure and I won't take responsibility for that.
 
:::::I think this is the best I can do here, the next step to explain all this could be making a movie or a five-act play, but I hope it's not necessary :)
 
:::::-- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 05:56, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
 
  
== "Configure the network" is missing ==
+
::[[Installation guide]] would always be read by those installing Arch Linux. But not necessarily [[Help:Reading]] (today is first time I read it in 4-5 years with Arch Linux). So Installation guide will bring in more awareness and more involvement of users.
  
Basically, you establish an internet connection, but you also need to configure the network, so that you can connect after rebooting. The Beginners' Guide [[Beginners'_Guide#Configure_the_network|mentions]] it: ''You need to configure the network again, but this time for your newly installed environment. The procedure and prerequisites are very similar to the one described above, except we are going to make it persistent and automatically run at boot.'' And this information seems to be missing from the installation guide. --[[User:DSpider|DSpider]] ([[User talk:DSpider|talk]]) 13:51, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
+
:::That's a bit of an issue since the Installation guide assumes users have read [[Help:Reading]]... though I'm not unaware of this, see e.g. [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Installation_guide&diff=508490&oldid=508486] -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 09:55, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
  
:I don't think that any Developer is watching this talk page, you'd better report this in the forum or mailing list. -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 10:43, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
+
::::Actually the purpose of [[Help:Reading]] is to tell users how to read the page / article but not what can be done after Installation. Here Tip is intended to suggest what to do after installation. i.e. Post-installation.
 +
::::[[User:Amish|Amish]] ([[User talk:Amish|talk]]) 12:15, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
  
::I'm not sure if this should be a part of the installation guide. -- [[User:Karol|Karol]] ([[User talk:Karol|talk]]) 15:20, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
+
:I'd word it less imperatively:
 +
::{{Tip|You can stay up to date with ArchWiki articles by [[Special:CreateAccount|creating an account]] and adding articles of interest to [[Special:Watchlist|your Watchlist]].}}
 +
:--[[User:Larivact|Larivact]] ([[User talk:Larivact|talk]]) 04:47, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
  
:::Of course it should. Because after rebooting (which you are instructed to), you're left with a borked machine. You need to boot the installation media again, establish an internet connection, mount the partitions and chroot into your system, and only THEN install the required packages. There should at least be a line that mentions [[netcfg]]. Because I read that it can handle both wired and wireless connections, and it's included in {{Grp|base}} now. --[[User:DSpider|DSpider]] ([[User talk:DSpider|talk]]) 07:04, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
+
::Sounds good to me. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 09:55, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
::::I'm sorry if I'm missing something, but there is [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Installation_Guide#Connect_to_the_internet a line about netcfg already] and was there a month ago when this discussion was started. If you want to add a note that after rebooting the user has to enable dhcpcd service etc. (so he should have all the needed packages installed beforehand) that's fine with me. -- [[User:Karol|Karol]] ([[User talk:Karol|talk]]) 10:09, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
 
  
== Install a bootloader ==
+
::My intention was to highlight [[General recommendations]] for Watchlist because thats a page every Arch user must follow to keep their Arch Linux well maintained. Other important page that I feel must be highlighted to be added in Watchlist is [[System maintenance]].
 +
::
 +
::OR we can have Tip like this:
 +
::{{Tip|You can stay up to date with ArchWiki articles by [[Special:CreateAccount|creating an account]] and adding articles of interest to [[Special:Watchlist|your Watchlist]]. Few articles you may want start with are at [[Main Page]]}}
 +
::-- [[User:Amish|Amish]] ([[User talk:Amish|talk]]) 12:32, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
  
Make it more visible that it is a choise between Grub/Syslinux.
+
:What is the current state of this suggestion, because I believe it is very interesting. I have a preference for the first proposed TIP.
 +
:-- [[User:Apollo22|Apollo22]] ([[User talk:Apollo22|talk]]) 19:23, 12 August 2018 (UTC)
  
== 2 amendments to do ==
+
:Why not just use bookmarks? Creating an account to follow changes seems more tedious, it's meant for editors. --[[User:Ubone|Ubone]] ([[User talk:Ubone|talk]]) 16:34, 22 September 2018 (UTC)
  
In '''Configure the system''':
+
== Network Configuration -- WiFi discussion ==
  
There is only one link on
+
I'm starting a new thread seeing as the last one took a different direction and never really got resolved.
    ''Add console keymap and font preferences in /etc/vconsole.conf''
 
This link should apply only to "console keymap".<br>
 
"font preferences" should link to [[Fonts#Console_fonts]]
 
  
 +
----
  
There is also:
+
As it stands, the current instructions for the installation guide make it challenging for users who need to connect to the internet via a Wireless connection rather than wired. The [[Installation_guide#Connect_to_the_Internet]] section essentially assumes the users are using a wired connection, and to test it with a ping. Otherwise, they are directed to the [[Network_configuration]] page. Unfortunately, that page does not provide clear instructions for new users (or even those who just want to do a quick connection) to establish a connection via wireless. Equally so, should users find their way to the [[Wireless_network_configuration]] page, there is some digging to do there in order to find instructions to setup a connection. These are currently using the iw command, which may prove to be challenging to some.
    ''Uncomment the selected locale in /etc/locale.gen and generate it with locale-gen.''
+
I see a few different possible solutions to improve the user experience:
This should be removed as it has been already done during this step:
+
* Add explicit instructions to the installation guide
    ''Set locale preferences in /etc/locale.conf.''
+
** This is not ideal, as it adds another place to maintain likely duplicate information
 +
* Add a reference to the [[Wireless_network_configuration]] page
 +
** This is better, though the page would likely need a new section, or some tweaking to allow users to more easily find the information they need to get setup
 +
* Add new/better instructions to the [[Network_configuration]] page
 +
** This may also prove to be tricky, seeing as that page is already fairly monolithic, and focuses mostly on wired connections
 +
One other consideration (of which I also don't see any progress) is the discussions revolving around moving and breaking down the Network Configuration guides, to separate Wired and Wireless content. With this move I could see such instructions being provided there. In any case, the guide should provide instructions that are:
 +
* Easy to follow, particularly for new users
 +
* Puts no emphasis on persisting configurations, as this is not applicable during the install phase
 +
* Offers options (choice is King)
 +
--[[User:CubeTheThird|CubeTheThird]] ([[User talk:CubeTheThird|talk]]) 23:47, 26 August 2018 (UTC)
  
Thanks and regards,
+
:The [[Wireless network configuration]] link [[Special:Diff/523161|was removed]] because it cannot be used independently of [[Network configuration]]. I propose the following:
[[User:Boism|Boism]] ([[User talk:Boism|talk]]) 21:10, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
+
:# Implement [[Talk:Network configuration#Moving Ethernet-specific sections to Wired subpage]]. [[Network configuration]] currently isn't straightforward. The actual setup instructions are hidden in the ''Network management'' section and it's confusing that wireless has a subpage but wired and medium-agnostic configuration are mixed together. See [[User:Larivact/drafts/Network configuration|my demo]].
 +
:# <s>Have the ''Connect to the Internet'' section only link [[Network configuration]] and move the dhcpcd udev rule note there.</s>
 +
:# Move [[Wireless network configuration]] to [[Network configuration/Wireless]] and move its ''iw'' section to a dedicated article because since recently we also have [[iwd]].
 +
:The result should be more user-friendly without duplicating content.
 +
:--[[User:Larivact|Larivact]] ([[User talk:Larivact|talk]]) 07:13, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
  
== <s> EFI / GPT too complex to set up with Arch </s> ==
+
::As for your demo, note that in [[Talk:Network_configuration#Ongoing_rewrite]], [[User:Alad|Alad]] said: "ping is one of the very first commands a new user has to run on installation to verify the availability of an internet connection". So unless you intend to direct users from the installation guide directly to the [[Network configuration#Troubleshooting]] section, there is still some more thinking to be done... -- [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 07:21, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
  
I am not at my first Arch installation, though I had to give up using EFI/GPT to revert to BIOS/MBR so complex is the current procedure. New Arch Linux user may be horrified by this procedure and give up. Fortunately when first I tried Arch, there was a TUI installer supporting GRUB/LVM. Today your are left to the # prompt and this Installation guide that links to too many other guides (UEFI, GRUB2, Partitioning, ...).
+
:::Well then let's keep ''Connect to the Internet'' and revise it:
  
--[[User:Mrechte|Marc Rechté]] ([[User talk:Mrechte|talk]]) 07:54, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
+
The installation image has [https://git.archlinux.org/archiso.git/tree/configs/releng/airootfs/etc/udev/rules.d/81-dhcpcd.rules a udev rule] that enables the [[dhcpcd]] service for Ethernet network interfaces on boot. If you use Ethernet, verify the connection with [[ping]]:
: As said in the beginning of this talk page. There is a detailed description in [[Beginner's Guide]]. New users should read that page. -- [[User:Fengchao|Fengchao]] ([[User talk:Fengchao|talk]]) 14:40, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
 
  
== The configuration and installation of GRUB in the boot sector is absent ==
+
# ping archlinux.org
  
In the GRUB section the guide says:
+
If the ping fails see [[Network configuration#Troubleshooting]]. If you want to use Wi-Fi or a static IP address, [[stop]] the ''dhcpcd'' service with {{ic|systemctl stop dhcpcd@''interface''}} where the {{ic|''interface''}} name can be [[Wikipedia:Command-line_completion|tab-completed]] and proceed with [[Network configuration]].
  
"Install GRUB after chrooting (refer to the #Configure the system section). "
+
:::--[[User:Larivact|Larivact]] ([[User talk:Larivact|talk]]) 08:41, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
  
But isn't, and following the guide my system fail in the first startup, the lines to add in "Configure the system section" are:
+
::::That looks good to me. -- [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 14:57, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
  
In the chroot:
+
== ArchWiki link ==
# grub-mkconfig > /boot/grub/grub.cfg
 
# grub-install <device>
 
  
Or a comment like:
+
[[special:diff/542917]] shouldn't that link go [[Table_of_contents]] or similar? --[[User:Ubone|Ubone]] ([[User talk:Ubone|talk]]) 13:20, 26 September 2018 (UTC)
 
* Configure and install GRUB using grub-mkconfig and grub-install, see [[Grub|GRUB page]] for more info
 
  
== Mount the partitions ==
+
:Why would it? That link is supposed to specifically explain what ArchWiki ''is''. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 13:38, 26 September 2018 (UTC)
  
Please also mention that if using a swap partition the user should execute swapon at the "Mount to partitions" step. It is important to do this so that the swap partition is included when generating the fstab later on in the guide.--[[User:Takaitra|Takaitra]] ([[User talk:Takaitra|talk]]) 17:13, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
+
::isn't the context of the sentence about the tools used in the article and their wiki pages? --[[User:Ubone|Ubone]] ([[User talk:Ubone|talk]]) 14:39, 26 September 2018 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
== /etc/locale.conf needs to be created ==
 +
 
 +
The area needing a correction is [[Installation guide#Localization]].
 +
 
 +
The instructions tell you to set variables in the /etc/locale.conf file, but the file doesn't exist unless the user creates it. If the user needs to '''create''' the file, it should be explicitly explained with that language just as it is explained for the hostname file in [[Installation guide#Network configuration]] area. "'''Create''' the hostname file:"
 +
 
 +
For '''Localization''', I propose we add the verbiage ''Create the locale.conf file: /etc/locale.conf''
 +
[[User:Schlitzkrieg|Schlitzkrieg]] ([[User talk:Schlitzkrieg|talk]]) 18:52, 28 September 2018 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
== fstab ==
 +
 
 +
The section about generating the fstab with genfstab mentions -U and -L options but not the possibility to use GPT identifiers PARTUUID and PARTLABEL with the '-t' option. Those are described in [[Persistent block device naming]] and are a better choice for some users. genfstab itself doesn't explicitly list the GPT options either so IMHO it would be helpful to add this info here.
 +
 
 +
{{unsigned|15:12, 9 October 2018‎|Grmat}}
 +
 
 +
== Wording in example layout table and size of EFI partition ==
 +
 
 +
Regarding [[Installation_guide#Example_layouts]]:
 +
# even if  many users will understand remainder of the device as what is left after size of /dev/sdx1 and /dev/sdx3 are subtsructed from the size of the device, I think the order of the table might be confusing for some. Some people might set /dev/sdx2 to the size of the device minus size of /dev/sdx1, and then stumbled at where from 512 MiB, or larger, are to be found for /dev/sdx3. Either suggest the swap space as /dev/sdx2 and / as /dev/sdx3, or better explain the meaning of the remainder of the device for sdx2.
 +
# As for the size of sdx1 for UEFI+GPT, I think 260-550 MiB are better than 260-512 MiB, as per [[EFI system partition#Create the partition]], which is referenced by [[partition#/boot]].
 +
[[User:Regid|Regid]] ([[User talk:Regid|talk]]) 14:05, 29 December 2018 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:I would like to propose an ESP size of 5 MiB (requires fat12 filesystem format), which works fine on any well-designed implementation of the UEFI spec, like my laptop, and elegantly covers the case where the EFI contains only a capable bootloader, which loads the kernel from another (ext4/btrfs/whatever) partition.
 +
 
 +
:Anyway the page you linked makes it quite clear that 512 MiB is fine for any UEFI implementation, and "avoiding confusion" seems to be rather inferior compared to just instructing people to use {{ic|mkfs.fat -F 32}}. -- [[User:Eschwartz|Eschwartz]] ([[User talk:Eschwartz|talk]]) 23:44, 29 December 2018 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
::I'm not sure I understand your comment. Do you propose to add an mkfs.fat line to [[Installation guide#Format the partitions]] for a /boot partition? -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 08:55, 30 December 2018 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:::I'm saying we already do do so, in [[EFI system partition#Format the partition]] where we go into lots of detail about the best way to set up an ESP, why fat32 is not necessary but nevertheless is recommended, and the optimal size for one. None of this elaboration is suitable for the [[Installation guide]], which does not even mention which filesystem type any of the example layouts uses. But we do explicitly state it "must" be fat32 in [[File systems#Create a file system]] which we link to immediately after the example layouts. -- [[User:Eschwartz|Eschwartz]] ([[User talk:Eschwartz|talk]]) 16:35, 30 December 2018 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
::::Yes, but just because of that content Regid has a point that the 260-512 example is confusing. I'd say, match it now by switching to a 550MiB example as per [[#Example layouts section draft]] below, which in the end only carries the recommendation from the subject articles into the installation guide. --[[User:Indigo|Indigo]] ([[User talk:Indigo|talk]]) 21:33, 3 February 2019 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:::::But the primary recommendation there ''is'' to use 512, and as I said I think it makes more sense to stick with what we already say, and recommend the use of {{ic|mkfs.fat -F 32}}. I'm unclear why the article seems to be recommending the use of specific sizes merely to trick the mkfs.vfat command into selecting the right vfat version. -- [[User:Eschwartz|Eschwartz]] ([[User talk:Eschwartz|talk]]) 21:41, 3 February 2019 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
::::::You paraphrased your reply to the last question very much; I did not get that you recommend that. In the linked subject articles I found mentions along the lines of "..at least 512 MiB. 550 MiB is recommended..". Hence, I restate my main point: this article should subsume recommendations from the other articles (and this is the wrong place to start discussing them), not make different ones. --[[User:Indigo|Indigo]] ([[User talk:Indigo|talk]]) 22:39, 3 February 2019 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:::::: The 550 MiB recommendation is useful in case someone is creating and formatting the partitions with gparted or a similar tool, instead of doing it from the command line. Who knows what automagic those tools use... -- [[User:nl6720|nl6720]] ([[User talk:nl6720|talk]]) 10:48, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:::::: I also question the usefulness of 550MB to trick mkfs. I noticed that approximately half-year ago several wiki articles related to this issue has switched to recommend 550MB, but i didn't bother to argue. Wiki should be helpful, but not assuming users cannot understand the -F 32 option and should not revert to give advices to fool utilities. Regarding other points. 1) This discussion page is no worse than other places to discuss this issue. 2) The wiki everywhere discusses partitioning by command line tools, at least at core articles related to installation and partitions. If someone decided to use automatic tools and by mistake created FAT16 EFI partition he can easily undo his mistake. --[[User:Mxfm|Mxfm]] ([[User talk:Mxfm|talk]]) 04:54, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:Using /dev/sdx2 for swap is questionable, it doesn't emphasize that swap is optional nor is it consistent with other articles like [[dm-crypt/Encrypting an entire system]]. If you have some better explanation for "remainder of the device" feel free to propose it. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 08:55, 30 December 2018 (UTC)
 +
:: I was trying to say that a user that patitions his HD by following the table might do the following: look at first row in the table, and creates the EFI partition. Than continue with the 2nd row. So he creates a partition at the remainder of his HD. Now he comes to the 3rd row: where will he get 512 MiB, or larger? As for [[dm-crypt/Encrypting an entire system]], I might be wrong thinking that each partition is considered a separate device, so it doesn't matter if the swap space is before, or after, the / partition. [[User:Regid|Regid]] ([[User talk:Regid|talk]]) 12:41, 30 December 2018 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
::: Perhaps call it "Principal part of the device" instead. NB the term "remainder of the device" is often used for a separate {{ic|/home}} in other articles. --[[User:Indigo|Indigo]] ([[User talk:Indigo|talk]]) 21:33, 3 February 2019 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
== systemctl ==
 +
:Moved from [[#Read this first before adding new suggestions]]. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 04:10, 2 January 2019 (UTC)
 +
I think this list of systemctl commands, perhaps the whole paragraph, should be stated in the installation guide itself, not only here. Also, the fact the some systemctl commands do work, according to [https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/798#issuecomment-126568596 github reference above], also worth explicit mention. Otherwise, users that do read pages of the wiki might not understand when to expect systemctl control commands, that are spread all over the wiki, to actually work within the chroot environment.
 +
 
 +
Another point that worth mentioning, in my opinion, is that systemctl notices it is running in a chroot environmnet, and refuses, or can not, carry on some actions. For example, it will enable units within the chroot environment. But it will not start them.
 +
 
 +
[[User:Regid|Regid]] ([[User talk:Regid|talk]]) 21:43, 31 December 2018 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:Note that the section [[#Read this first before adding new suggestions]] does not mention ''systemctl'' at all. -- [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 21:29, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
== Example layouts section ==
 +
 
 +
There are several things I don't like in the current [[Installation guide#Example layouts]] section.
 +
 
 +
* <s>BIOS/GPT & BIOS/MBR is merged in one example. This is bound to lead to unnecessary confusion, since, for example, there is no BIOS boot partition for MBR. I suggest omitting BIOS/GPT since not all firmware support it (due to being unsupported by Windows). Then the GRUB-specific partition doesn't need to be listed.</s>
 +
* <s>Column title "Partition type (GUID)". If the GUIDs (and IDs for MBR) are omitted for ''simplicity'', then the column should not mention them.</s>
 +
* <s>[https://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Specifications/DiscoverablePartitionsSpec/ The Discoverable Partitions Specification] is not used on GPT.</s>
 +
* The suggested size for {{ic|/}}, "Remainder of the device", could be replaced with the required minimum. [[Partitioning]] suggests 23-32 GiB, so how about 32 GiB.
 +
* The suggested size of [[ESP]] doesn't match the recommended size from [[EFI system partition#Create the partition]].
 +
* [[gdisk]] is not mentioned or linked (it doesn't share an wiki article with [[fdisk]] anymore) even once in the [[Installation guide]]. It could be added to the note below the tables.
 +
* <s>Without [[Template:ic]] around the mount points and partitions, they look awful.</s>
 +
 
 +
I presume that, unlike [[Partitioning#Example layouts]], the examples should be as ''simple'' as possible, so, I propose the following examples.
 +
 
 +
-- [[User:nl6720|nl6720]] ([[User talk:nl6720|talk]]) 07:37, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
: I guess {{ic|/dev/sd''X''2}} being root in both examples is the reason for keeping the current "BIOS with MBR or GPT" example. I don't really have a solution for this. The wiki's usage of {{ic|/dev/sdXY}} will need to be addressed sooner or later due to the naming scheme of NVME disks.
 +
: Re [[Special:Diff/565508]]: There's no maximum for the ESP, so how about "At least 256 MiB". -- [[User:nl6720|nl6720]] ([[User talk:nl6720|talk]]) 09:00, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:: I agree with the simpler examples. To make the numbering work out I propose to simplify the example commands in [[Installation guide#Format the partitions]], it's hard to cater to users who have never mounted a drive or created a directory anyway.
 +
:: Regarding the partition sizes, note that the column says "suggested size" instead of "maximum" or "minimum" size. (256 MiB is not the strict minimum either, especially for {{ic|/efi}} as mount point.) As such the existing 256-512 MiB suggestion for ESP looks reasonable to me. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 18:54, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
::: [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Installation_guide&diff=565589&oldid=565575] -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 19:06, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
::: My issue with "256–512 MiB" is that the [[EFI system partition#Create the partition]] recommendation "550 MiB" is outside that range. -- [[User:nl6720|nl6720]] ([[User talk:nl6720|talk]]) 19:39, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:::: This was (is?) discussed in [[#Wording_in_example_layout_table_and_size_of_EFI_partition]] -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 19:43, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
::::: Hmm, I see. FAT32 & 512+ MiB are used due to to firmware bugs, but the example suggests a range that includes a size smaller than 512 MiB so it's ineffective for that purpose. The main issue for me is that readers will see "''conflicting information''" with 256–512 MiB in the [[Installation guide]] and 550 MiB in other articles (just in case, I'm not suggesting to change the other articles). No one is going to think that the "Suggested size" is just a suggestion and not a hard limit.  -- [[User:nl6720|nl6720]] ([[User talk:nl6720|talk]]) 20:10, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
=== Example layouts section draft ===
 +
 
 +
{| class="wikitable"
 +
|+ BIOS/MBR
 +
|-
 +
! Mount point
 +
! Partition
 +
! [[Wikipedia:Partition type|Partition type]]
 +
! Suggested size
 +
|-
 +
| {{ic|/mnt}}
 +
| {{ic|/dev/sd''X''1}}
 +
| Linux
 +
| At least 32 GiB
 +
|-
 +
| {{ic|[SWAP]}}
 +
| {{ic|/dev/sd''X''2}}
 +
| Linux swap
 +
| More than 512 MiB
 +
|-
 +
|}
 +
 
 +
{| class="wikitable"
 +
|+ UEFI/GPT
 +
|-
 +
! Mount point
 +
! Partition
 +
! [[Wikipedia:GUID_Partition_Table#Partition_type_GUIDs|Partition type]]
 +
! Suggested size
 +
|-
 +
| {{ic|/boot}} or {{ic|/mnt/efi}}
 +
| {{ic|/dev/sd''X''1}}
 +
| [[EFI system partition]]
 +
| 550 MiB
 +
|-
 +
| {{ic|/mnt}}
 +
| {{ic|/dev/sd''X''2}}
 +
| Linux x86-64 root (/)
 +
| At least 32 GiB
 +
|-
 +
| {{ic|[SWAP]}}
 +
| {{ic|/dev/sd''X''3}}
 +
| Linux swap
 +
| More than 512 MiB
 +
|-
 +
|}
 +
 
 +
{{Note|
 +
* Use [[fdisk]] or [[parted]], or [[gdisk]] (GPT only) to modify partition tables. For example {{ic|fdisk /dev/sd''X''}}.
 +
* [[Swap]] space can be set on a [[swap file]] for file systems supporting it.
 +
}}
 +
 
 +
See [[Partitioning#Example layouts]] for more detailed and advanced examples.
 +
 
 +
== Reword locale section that it is clear that not uncommenting en_US will lead to issues ==
 +
 
 +
In the unofficial Telegram group we get people at least weekly that have some issue that goes back to not uncommenting en_US.
 +
 
 +
There needs to be added emphasis on the AND or simply explained that en_US is the default that apps expect, and will otherwise crash or malfunction.
 +
 
 +
Current: Uncomment {{ic|en_US.UTF-8 UTF-8}} and other needed [[locale]]s in {{ic|/etc/locale.gen}}, and generate them with:
 +
 
 +
Proposed: Uncomment {{ic|en_US.UTF-8 UTF-8}}, which is needed for many programs to work, and also other needed [[locale]]s in {{ic|/etc/locale.gen}}, and generate them with:
 +
 
 +
[[User:C0rn3j|C0rn3j]] ([[User talk:C0rn3j|talk]]) 13:53, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:Uncommenting locales which will never be used does not make sense. Obviously, it is the point of locales to let users configure something else than en_US, so if something crashes without en_US, it is not a configuration problem.
 +
:In any case, the installation guide will not change based on some vague claims which others cannot read on.
 +
:-- [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 20:43, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
== <s>Rewrite Proposal</s> ==
 +
 
 +
I'm proposing a rewrite of the [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Installation_guide Installation guide]. I can provide a rough draft of this proposal. My reasoning for proposing such a rewrite is to make it more inviting for new comers of all platforms and all experience levels. The article will consist of screenshots.
 +
 
 +
{{unsigned|12:44, 17 February 2019‎|LinuxPhreak}}
 +
 
 +
:The article will definitely not consist of screenshots which are useless for text-based things. For the rest, the article should evolve gradually instead of with a single rewrite. Feel free to propose the individual changes or make a draft in your user (sub)page. -- [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 12:59, 17 February 2019 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:The gist of the reverted draft on this page was:
 +
:* In '''#Verify signature''' section add gpg4win and gpgtools for Windows and OSX users respectively with screenshots approved by community.
 +
:* In '''#Connect to the Internet''' section add wifi-menu and wpa_supplicant usage example for wireless configuration.
 +
:* In '''#Partition the disks''' section add parted, fdisk and cfdisk examples.
 +
:While I disagree with these solutions they showcase some of the already known problems with the guide:
 +
:* Missing explicit link to installation from Windows and OSX, like was in [{{server}}?oldid=557382#Installation_methods Getting and installing Arch] and partly merged [{{server}}?oldid=558102#Alternative_methods Installation guide] draft. Instead [[:Category:Installation process]] link [{{server}}?oldid=559963#Merge_and_rewrite has been considered] as sufficient by me and [[User:Alad|Alad]] at the moment with intention to revisit it after the merge has been completed.
 +
:* Networking problems are currently discussed in [[#Network configuration]] and [[#Network Configuration -- WiFi discussion]].
 +
:* Partitioning examples are currently discussed in [[#Example layouts section]].
 +
:I would suggest to familiarize yourself again with [[Help:Reading]] and existing talk topics on this page in addition to [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]]' suggestion.
 +
:-- [[User:Svito|Svito]] ([[User talk:Svito|talk]]) 15:01, 17 February 2019 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
== SSH ==
 +
 
 +
For me the first thing I wanna do is connect to the new server by SSH!
 +
Then I can copy/paste commands, sit at my own workplace with multiple screens, and access the wiki and Google etc etc etc. Am I really the only one? Or does the majority really sit in front of their new linux box with a seperate monitor, keyb and mouse? I would be surprised!
 +
Please add, as one of the very first sections, how to enable SSH:
 +
-passwd
 +
-systemctl start sshd.service
 +
 
 +
Then you can start to configure and continue the installation :-)
 +
{{Unsigned|23:35, 20 February 2019 (UTC)|MrCalvin}}
 +
 
 +
:All of that is already explained in the [[Install from SSH]] article. -- [[User:nl6720|nl6720]] ([[User talk:nl6720|talk]]) 08:45, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 08:45, 21 February 2019

Read this first before adding new suggestions

  • systemd tools such as hostnamectl, timedatectl and localectl do not work in the installation chroot environment, so please do not propose to use them in the guide unless you can prove that they have been made to work also in that case. See [1], [2], [3] and [4] for some past discussions about this issue.
  • localectl list-keymaps does not work due to bug FS#46725. For the chosen replacement command, see [5].
  • localhost must be set explicitely in /etc/hosts, as it is otherwise resolved over the network. See FS#56684.

-- The ArchWiki Administrators 22:17, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

pacman-key --populate

[Moved from Talk:Beginners' guide. -- Alad (talk) 20:38, 12 July 2016 (UTC)]

Reference: https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Beginners%27_guide&diff=next&oldid=411670 I tried to install Archlinux on my new computer and got stuck. Only using the pacman-key --populate archlinux helped me. I think I am not the only one having this problem. But why did you undo it? —This unsigned comment is by Sandstorm (talk) 20:38, 12 December 2015‎. Please sign your posts with ~~~~!

This command is already run for the new system (by installation of archlinux-keyring), so running it by hand shouldn't be required for most users. Of course, things can go wrong (how old was the ISO you used to install the system?), but that belongs in Troubleshooting sections of the respective articles, which are linked at the beginning of the guide. -- Alad (talk) 19:52, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
I had downloaded the ISO just yesterday, minutes before the install. Only that command installed the keys. Probably I should open a bug if you can confirm the issue?
Did you have to run pacman-key after, or before pacstrap? And do you recall what the error messages said exactly? (See also FS#31286) -- Alad (talk) 20:15, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
I had to run after pacstrap. As far as I remember, pacstrap stopped after trying to download the keys. The error message was something like shown in this forum post: https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=165367
Well then, as you suggested, I'd open a bug report. -- Alad (talk) 20:34, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
Done. Could you check if the description is good. I could not find an appropriate category, so I though Packages:Core might be the closest one. https://bugs.archlinux.org/task/47351 --Sandstorm (talk) 20:48, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
Thanks, the description looks OK. If the category e.a is not right, User:Scimmia should fix it. :P -- Alad (talk) 13:59, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
Hmm, looks like it was closed with "Works for me" ... not very enlightening. All I can suggest is to further improve on Pacman/Package signing and related articles, and recheck if they're accessible enough from the Beginners' guide. -- Alad (talk) 21:59, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

Link to the German version

Instead of de:Arch Install Scripts you could choose de:Anleitung für Einsteiger it means "Beginner's Guid" and is a very detailed artikel for very new arch users and the future experts.

Thank you, done. -- Kynikos (talk) 16:31, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
This was already proposed last year and rejected: [6]. I don't see what has changed since then. If someone adds me as admin to the german wiki or changes the protection settings, I can update de:Arch Install Scripts as required. -- Alad (talk) 18:13, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
I see, I didn't remember that discussion so I've reverted the change, hopefully you'll make it to update the translation, let's leave this open until the problem is solved, otherwise this kind of suggestion will keep appearing recurrently. -- Kynikos (talk) 17:53, 7 February 2018 (UTC)

Network configuration

The newly installed environment has no network connection activated by default. See Network configuration#Network management.
For Wireless configuration, install the iw and wpa_supplicant packages, as well as needed firmware packages. Optionally install dialog for usage of wifi-menu.

The Network configuration section is rubbish. It doesn't explain that wifi-menu is part of netctl and telling users to install both iw and wpa_supplicant is plainly wrong. I would replace it with a DRY "See Network configuration." but maintainers aren't trusted to edit the Installation guide. --Larivact (talk) 17:09, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

If maintainers go on the talk page and plainly state "this section is rubbish" while indicating they would push their change without discussion, then no, I wouldn't trust maintainers with editing this central article. -- Alad (talk) 21:09, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
Nah, Larivact is right. I had to go to a completely different site to figure out that wifi-menu even exists. It should include the line: "For supported wireless devices run wifi-menu to set up the network". Would have saved me a couple hours. I genuinely don't understand why you would include the tool, but have no reference to it (and please don't take this as an indication that you should just remove the tool). Klaymen (talk) 02:38, 24 December 2018 (UTC)
I would agree linking appropriate article would suit more than current section, given deprecation of Beginners' Guide for similar reasons.
It is not that maintainers aren't trusted, but that MediaWiki doesn't allow specifying what user groups can perform edits, the choice is only among all, only auto-confirmed or only admins [7], plus we need to discuss edits to central wiki articles beforehand anyway [8]. -- Svito (talk) 20:03, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
I've wanted to create additional groups for a while now (should be simple with LocalSettings.php published). Anyone interested should be able to write a patch and send it to the admins. -- Alad (talk) 21:09, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
Indeed "rubbish" wasn't a very wise choice of a word, a lot of volunteer effort has been put to get to the current state of the wiki, of course everything can always be improved.
In particular, the history of that section basically is Beginners' guide#Network configuration > [9] > [10].
I'd be in favor of simply restoring a similar state to [11], i.e. I'd link Network configuration but also Wireless network configuration directly, and drop the rest of the details.
-- Kynikos (talk) 16:19, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
[12] With the recent changes to Network configuration article, we may make similar changes to Installation guide#Connect to the Internet. Even a specific link to Wireless network configuration should no longer be required, since you need to follow Network configuration#DHCP anyway and Wireless is linked from Network configuration#Setup. Proposed wording:
The installation image enables the dhcpcd daemon on boot for wired network devices. The connection may be checked with:
# ping archlinux.org
If no connection is available, stop the dhcpcd service:
# systemctl stop dhcpcd@<TAB>
Proceed with instructions in Network configuration.
If that's a bit too short we might expand the ping(8) example, compare expansion template in Network_configuration#Ping. --Alad (talk) 16:38, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
I actually prefer the current style with the systemctl example, using the ic template and a spelled-out instruction to press Tab. I don't see the need to expand further on ping directly in this page.
On a second thought with respect to my previous post, I'm fine with dropping direct links to Wireless network configuration and only point to Network configuration as proposed in OP, i.e. also in Installation guide#Network configuration (I think we should be consistent between the two network-configuration sections).
Another idea, we could merge Installation guide#Hostname into Installation guide#Network configuration now, since Hostname lands in Network configuration anyway, and even if that section is moved to DNS configuration, it's still all network setup.
-- Kynikos (talk) 15:08, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
I've removed the Wireless network configuration link from both sections. As it stands it cannot be used independently of Network configuration anyway. It's the devil or the blue sea - when configuring a simple wireless connection, users have to wade through pages of possibly unrelated information in Network configuration or be confused by missing steps in Wireless network configuration. Sometimes I believe that things would be much easier if our user base didn't value "choice" as much.
About the systemctl example, after all this time I'm still not sure on the Tab instructions. We never finished the relevant discussion in Help_talk:Reading and the steps to fill in (choosing the right ethernet adapter, tab-completing it and pressing return) are not necessarily obvious.
About Installation guide#Hostname, I'm fine with moving this section under Installation guide#Network configuration. -- Alad (talk) 23:22, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
I've merged #Hostname into #Network_configuration.
I hear you about the complexity of the network configuration pages, but it's a huge topic, I'll leave it to Talk:Network configuration.
I'm going to reply to Help talk:Reading#Mention tab completion.3F, but regarding this instance I propose the following:
If no connection is available, stop the dhcpcd service with systemctl stop dhcpcd@interface; you can tab-complete the interface name. Then proceed to configure the network as described in Network configuration.
-- Kynikos (talk) 15:49, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
I'd like "where the interface name can be tab-completed" better, but that's just a detail. -- Lahwaacz (talk) 16:33, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
Implemented [13] -- Alad (talk) 16:50, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
How about we add a sentence to Installation_guide#Network_configuration describing how to restore use of dhcpcd as done on the installation medium? That way if the connection already worked on installation people only need a brief look at dhcpcd. -- Alad (talk) 15:48, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
I think that would just hide the possibility of choice from users. Maybe just say that dhcpcd is not enabled on the installed system without recommending anything. -- Lahwaacz (talk) 17:34, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
May I suggest the following edit to this section:
If no connection is available, or you are using a wireless device, stop the dhcpcd service with ... Tourian (talk) 04:45, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
That's already mentioned in the relevant section: Installation_guide#Connect_to_the_Internet. dhcpcd is not enabled by default in the installed system so there is nothing to stop in Installation_guide#Network_configuration. -- Lahwaacz (talk) 06:33, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
I guess the proposed wording is indeed for Installation_guide#Connect_to_the_Internet, which as it stands has no mention of wireless devices (only implied through lack of connection) -- Alad (talk) 10:05, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
Yes, it is not explicit. The wording on 20 May 2018 at the end of Installation_guide#Connect_to_the_Internet was "Proceed with Network configuration for wired devices or Wireless network configuration for wireless devices", with the reference to wireless devices removed after the decision to send those on wireless connections to Network configuration. Therefore, how about starting this section with, "If you are using a wireless network device, proceed with Network Configuration. For wired devices, the installation image enables the dhcpcd daemon on boot. The connection..." and leave the rest as it is. -- Tourian (talk) 14:04, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
I perhaps prefer the first wording you suggested, since we've always told people to disable the wired dhcpcd even when using a wireless connection, to rule out any possible conflicts. I don't feel strongly about this however.. -- Alad (talk) 16:03, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
In Installation_guide#Network_configuration, can we append the introduction of Network_configuration#Network_management? Currently new users are pointed to a page that is comprehensive, but unhelpful as a part of the installation guide. --Mpan (talk) 00:38, 8 February 2019 (UTC)

Why should a static IP be preferred over 127.0.1.1 in /etc/hosts?

"If the system has a permanent IP address, it should be used instead of 127.0.1.1."

I think the ArchWiki should not just say do X but also why. Alad as you added this, perhaps you can explain?--Larivact (talk) 15:14, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

In Network_configuration#Local hostname resolution: "For a system with a permanent IP address, that permanent IP address should be used instead of 127.0.1.1." -- Lahwaacz (talk) 06:48, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
First appearance in our wiki, cited source, also discussion. -- Kynikos (talk) 10:26, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Add a TIP under Post-installation

Under Installation_guide#Post-installation, it may be a good idea to add a TIP like this for new (or even existing) users:

Tip: Create an account at ArchWiki and add General recommendations page to your Watchlist to automatically get alerts for new recommendation or changes to existing recommendations. You may also add other Wiki pages of your liking to the Watchlist so as to always stay up-to-date with them.

-- Amish (talk) 01:19, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

It's certainly an interesting suggestion. I'm not sure if it's in the scope of the installation guide however; maybe Help:Reading is better suited? -- Alad (talk) 21:26, 10 June 2018 (UTC)
Installation guide would always be read by those installing Arch Linux. But not necessarily Help:Reading (today is first time I read it in 4-5 years with Arch Linux). So Installation guide will bring in more awareness and more involvement of users.
That's a bit of an issue since the Installation guide assumes users have read Help:Reading... though I'm not unaware of this, see e.g. [14] -- Alad (talk) 09:55, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
Actually the purpose of Help:Reading is to tell users how to read the page / article but not what can be done after Installation. Here Tip is intended to suggest what to do after installation. i.e. Post-installation.
Amish (talk) 12:15, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
I'd word it less imperatively:
Tip: You can stay up to date with ArchWiki articles by creating an account and adding articles of interest to your Watchlist.
--Larivact (talk) 04:47, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
Sounds good to me. -- Alad (talk) 09:55, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
My intention was to highlight General recommendations for Watchlist because thats a page every Arch user must follow to keep their Arch Linux well maintained. Other important page that I feel must be highlighted to be added in Watchlist is System maintenance.
OR we can have Tip like this:
Tip: You can stay up to date with ArchWiki articles by creating an account and adding articles of interest to your Watchlist. Few articles you may want start with are at Main Page
-- Amish (talk) 12:32, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
What is the current state of this suggestion, because I believe it is very interesting. I have a preference for the first proposed TIP.
-- Apollo22 (talk) 19:23, 12 August 2018 (UTC)
Why not just use bookmarks? Creating an account to follow changes seems more tedious, it's meant for editors. --Ubone (talk) 16:34, 22 September 2018 (UTC)

Network Configuration -- WiFi discussion

I'm starting a new thread seeing as the last one took a different direction and never really got resolved.


As it stands, the current instructions for the installation guide make it challenging for users who need to connect to the internet via a Wireless connection rather than wired. The Installation_guide#Connect_to_the_Internet section essentially assumes the users are using a wired connection, and to test it with a ping. Otherwise, they are directed to the Network_configuration page. Unfortunately, that page does not provide clear instructions for new users (or even those who just want to do a quick connection) to establish a connection via wireless. Equally so, should users find their way to the Wireless_network_configuration page, there is some digging to do there in order to find instructions to setup a connection. These are currently using the iw command, which may prove to be challenging to some. I see a few different possible solutions to improve the user experience:

  • Add explicit instructions to the installation guide
    • This is not ideal, as it adds another place to maintain likely duplicate information
  • Add a reference to the Wireless_network_configuration page
    • This is better, though the page would likely need a new section, or some tweaking to allow users to more easily find the information they need to get setup
  • Add new/better instructions to the Network_configuration page
    • This may also prove to be tricky, seeing as that page is already fairly monolithic, and focuses mostly on wired connections

One other consideration (of which I also don't see any progress) is the discussions revolving around moving and breaking down the Network Configuration guides, to separate Wired and Wireless content. With this move I could see such instructions being provided there. In any case, the guide should provide instructions that are:

  • Easy to follow, particularly for new users
  • Puts no emphasis on persisting configurations, as this is not applicable during the install phase
  • Offers options (choice is King)

--CubeTheThird (talk) 23:47, 26 August 2018 (UTC)

The Wireless network configuration link was removed because it cannot be used independently of Network configuration. I propose the following:
  1. Implement Talk:Network configuration#Moving Ethernet-specific sections to Wired subpage. Network configuration currently isn't straightforward. The actual setup instructions are hidden in the Network management section and it's confusing that wireless has a subpage but wired and medium-agnostic configuration are mixed together. See my demo.
  2. Have the Connect to the Internet section only link Network configuration and move the dhcpcd udev rule note there.
  3. Move Wireless network configuration to Network configuration/Wireless and move its iw section to a dedicated article because since recently we also have iwd.
The result should be more user-friendly without duplicating content.
--Larivact (talk) 07:13, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
As for your demo, note that in Talk:Network_configuration#Ongoing_rewrite, Alad said: "ping is one of the very first commands a new user has to run on installation to verify the availability of an internet connection". So unless you intend to direct users from the installation guide directly to the Network configuration#Troubleshooting section, there is still some more thinking to be done... -- Lahwaacz (talk) 07:21, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
Well then let's keep Connect to the Internet and revise it:

The installation image has a udev rule that enables the dhcpcd service for Ethernet network interfaces on boot. If you use Ethernet, verify the connection with ping:

# ping archlinux.org

If the ping fails see Network configuration#Troubleshooting. If you want to use Wi-Fi or a static IP address, stop the dhcpcd service with systemctl stop dhcpcd@interface where the interface name can be tab-completed and proceed with Network configuration.

--Larivact (talk) 08:41, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
That looks good to me. -- Lahwaacz (talk) 14:57, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

ArchWiki link

special:diff/542917 shouldn't that link go Table_of_contents or similar? --Ubone (talk) 13:20, 26 September 2018 (UTC)

Why would it? That link is supposed to specifically explain what ArchWiki is. -- Alad (talk) 13:38, 26 September 2018 (UTC)
isn't the context of the sentence about the tools used in the article and their wiki pages? --Ubone (talk) 14:39, 26 September 2018 (UTC)

/etc/locale.conf needs to be created

The area needing a correction is Installation guide#Localization.

The instructions tell you to set variables in the /etc/locale.conf file, but the file doesn't exist unless the user creates it. If the user needs to create the file, it should be explicitly explained with that language just as it is explained for the hostname file in Installation guide#Network configuration area. "Create the hostname file:"

For Localization, I propose we add the verbiage Create the locale.conf file: /etc/locale.conf Schlitzkrieg (talk) 18:52, 28 September 2018 (UTC)

fstab

The section about generating the fstab with genfstab mentions -U and -L options but not the possibility to use GPT identifiers PARTUUID and PARTLABEL with the '-t' option. Those are described in Persistent block device naming and are a better choice for some users. genfstab itself doesn't explicitly list the GPT options either so IMHO it would be helpful to add this info here.

—This unsigned comment is by Grmat (talk) 15:12, 9 October 2018‎. Please sign your posts with ~~~~!

Wording in example layout table and size of EFI partition

Regarding Installation_guide#Example_layouts:

  1. even if many users will understand remainder of the device as what is left after size of /dev/sdx1 and /dev/sdx3 are subtsructed from the size of the device, I think the order of the table might be confusing for some. Some people might set /dev/sdx2 to the size of the device minus size of /dev/sdx1, and then stumbled at where from 512 MiB, or larger, are to be found for /dev/sdx3. Either suggest the swap space as /dev/sdx2 and / as /dev/sdx3, or better explain the meaning of the remainder of the device for sdx2.
  2. As for the size of sdx1 for UEFI+GPT, I think 260-550 MiB are better than 260-512 MiB, as per EFI system partition#Create the partition, which is referenced by partition#/boot.

Regid (talk) 14:05, 29 December 2018 (UTC)

I would like to propose an ESP size of 5 MiB (requires fat12 filesystem format), which works fine on any well-designed implementation of the UEFI spec, like my laptop, and elegantly covers the case where the EFI contains only a capable bootloader, which loads the kernel from another (ext4/btrfs/whatever) partition.
Anyway the page you linked makes it quite clear that 512 MiB is fine for any UEFI implementation, and "avoiding confusion" seems to be rather inferior compared to just instructing people to use mkfs.fat -F 32. -- Eschwartz (talk) 23:44, 29 December 2018 (UTC)
I'm not sure I understand your comment. Do you propose to add an mkfs.fat line to Installation guide#Format the partitions for a /boot partition? -- Alad (talk) 08:55, 30 December 2018 (UTC)
I'm saying we already do do so, in EFI system partition#Format the partition where we go into lots of detail about the best way to set up an ESP, why fat32 is not necessary but nevertheless is recommended, and the optimal size for one. None of this elaboration is suitable for the Installation guide, which does not even mention which filesystem type any of the example layouts uses. But we do explicitly state it "must" be fat32 in File systems#Create a file system which we link to immediately after the example layouts. -- Eschwartz (talk) 16:35, 30 December 2018 (UTC)
Yes, but just because of that content Regid has a point that the 260-512 example is confusing. I'd say, match it now by switching to a 550MiB example as per #Example layouts section draft below, which in the end only carries the recommendation from the subject articles into the installation guide. --Indigo (talk) 21:33, 3 February 2019 (UTC)
But the primary recommendation there is to use 512, and as I said I think it makes more sense to stick with what we already say, and recommend the use of mkfs.fat -F 32. I'm unclear why the article seems to be recommending the use of specific sizes merely to trick the mkfs.vfat command into selecting the right vfat version. -- Eschwartz (talk) 21:41, 3 February 2019 (UTC)
You paraphrased your reply to the last question very much; I did not get that you recommend that. In the linked subject articles I found mentions along the lines of "..at least 512 MiB. 550 MiB is recommended..". Hence, I restate my main point: this article should subsume recommendations from the other articles (and this is the wrong place to start discussing them), not make different ones. --Indigo (talk) 22:39, 3 February 2019 (UTC)
The 550 MiB recommendation is useful in case someone is creating and formatting the partitions with gparted or a similar tool, instead of doing it from the command line. Who knows what automagic those tools use... -- nl6720 (talk) 10:48, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
I also question the usefulness of 550MB to trick mkfs. I noticed that approximately half-year ago several wiki articles related to this issue has switched to recommend 550MB, but i didn't bother to argue. Wiki should be helpful, but not assuming users cannot understand the -F 32 option and should not revert to give advices to fool utilities. Regarding other points. 1) This discussion page is no worse than other places to discuss this issue. 2) The wiki everywhere discusses partitioning by command line tools, at least at core articles related to installation and partitions. If someone decided to use automatic tools and by mistake created FAT16 EFI partition he can easily undo his mistake. --Mxfm (talk) 04:54, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
Using /dev/sdx2 for swap is questionable, it doesn't emphasize that swap is optional nor is it consistent with other articles like dm-crypt/Encrypting an entire system. If you have some better explanation for "remainder of the device" feel free to propose it. -- Alad (talk) 08:55, 30 December 2018 (UTC)
I was trying to say that a user that patitions his HD by following the table might do the following: look at first row in the table, and creates the EFI partition. Than continue with the 2nd row. So he creates a partition at the remainder of his HD. Now he comes to the 3rd row: where will he get 512 MiB, or larger? As for dm-crypt/Encrypting an entire system, I might be wrong thinking that each partition is considered a separate device, so it doesn't matter if the swap space is before, or after, the / partition. Regid (talk) 12:41, 30 December 2018 (UTC)
Perhaps call it "Principal part of the device" instead. NB the term "remainder of the device" is often used for a separate /home in other articles. --Indigo (talk) 21:33, 3 February 2019 (UTC)

systemctl

Moved from #Read this first before adding new suggestions. -- Alad (talk) 04:10, 2 January 2019 (UTC)

I think this list of systemctl commands, perhaps the whole paragraph, should be stated in the installation guide itself, not only here. Also, the fact the some systemctl commands do work, according to github reference above, also worth explicit mention. Otherwise, users that do read pages of the wiki might not understand when to expect systemctl control commands, that are spread all over the wiki, to actually work within the chroot environment.

Another point that worth mentioning, in my opinion, is that systemctl notices it is running in a chroot environmnet, and refuses, or can not, carry on some actions. For example, it will enable units within the chroot environment. But it will not start them.

Regid (talk) 21:43, 31 December 2018 (UTC)

Note that the section #Read this first before adding new suggestions does not mention systemctl at all. -- Lahwaacz (talk) 21:29, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

Example layouts section

There are several things I don't like in the current Installation guide#Example layouts section.

  • BIOS/GPT & BIOS/MBR is merged in one example. This is bound to lead to unnecessary confusion, since, for example, there is no BIOS boot partition for MBR. I suggest omitting BIOS/GPT since not all firmware support it (due to being unsupported by Windows). Then the GRUB-specific partition doesn't need to be listed.
  • Column title "Partition type (GUID)". If the GUIDs (and IDs for MBR) are omitted for simplicity, then the column should not mention them.
  • The Discoverable Partitions Specification is not used on GPT.
  • The suggested size for /, "Remainder of the device", could be replaced with the required minimum. Partitioning suggests 23-32 GiB, so how about 32 GiB.
  • The suggested size of ESP doesn't match the recommended size from EFI system partition#Create the partition.
  • gdisk is not mentioned or linked (it doesn't share an wiki article with fdisk anymore) even once in the Installation guide. It could be added to the note below the tables.
  • Without Template:ic around the mount points and partitions, they look awful.

I presume that, unlike Partitioning#Example layouts, the examples should be as simple as possible, so, I propose the following examples.

-- nl6720 (talk) 07:37, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

I guess /dev/sdX2 being root in both examples is the reason for keeping the current "BIOS with MBR or GPT" example. I don't really have a solution for this. The wiki's usage of /dev/sdXY will need to be addressed sooner or later due to the naming scheme of NVME disks.
Re Special:Diff/565508: There's no maximum for the ESP, so how about "At least 256 MiB". -- nl6720 (talk) 09:00, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
I agree with the simpler examples. To make the numbering work out I propose to simplify the example commands in Installation guide#Format the partitions, it's hard to cater to users who have never mounted a drive or created a directory anyway.
Regarding the partition sizes, note that the column says "suggested size" instead of "maximum" or "minimum" size. (256 MiB is not the strict minimum either, especially for /efi as mount point.) As such the existing 256-512 MiB suggestion for ESP looks reasonable to me. -- Alad (talk) 18:54, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
[15] -- Alad (talk) 19:06, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
My issue with "256–512 MiB" is that the EFI system partition#Create the partition recommendation "550 MiB" is outside that range. -- nl6720 (talk) 19:39, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
This was (is?) discussed in #Wording_in_example_layout_table_and_size_of_EFI_partition -- Alad (talk) 19:43, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
Hmm, I see. FAT32 & 512+ MiB are used due to to firmware bugs, but the example suggests a range that includes a size smaller than 512 MiB so it's ineffective for that purpose. The main issue for me is that readers will see "conflicting information" with 256–512 MiB in the Installation guide and 550 MiB in other articles (just in case, I'm not suggesting to change the other articles). No one is going to think that the "Suggested size" is just a suggestion and not a hard limit. -- nl6720 (talk) 20:10, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

Example layouts section draft

BIOS/MBR
Mount point Partition Partition type Suggested size
/mnt /dev/sdX1 Linux At least 32 GiB
[SWAP] /dev/sdX2 Linux swap More than 512 MiB
UEFI/GPT
Mount point Partition Partition type Suggested size
/boot or /mnt/efi /dev/sdX1 EFI system partition 550 MiB
/mnt /dev/sdX2 Linux x86-64 root (/) At least 32 GiB
[SWAP] /dev/sdX3 Linux swap More than 512 MiB
Note:
  • Use fdisk or parted, or gdisk (GPT only) to modify partition tables. For example fdisk /dev/sdX.
  • Swap space can be set on a swap file for file systems supporting it.

See Partitioning#Example layouts for more detailed and advanced examples.

Reword locale section that it is clear that not uncommenting en_US will lead to issues

In the unofficial Telegram group we get people at least weekly that have some issue that goes back to not uncommenting en_US.

There needs to be added emphasis on the AND or simply explained that en_US is the default that apps expect, and will otherwise crash or malfunction.

Current: Uncomment en_US.UTF-8 UTF-8 and other needed locales in /etc/locale.gen, and generate them with:

Proposed: Uncomment en_US.UTF-8 UTF-8, which is needed for many programs to work, and also other needed locales in /etc/locale.gen, and generate them with:

C0rn3j (talk) 13:53, 11 February 2019 (UTC)

Uncommenting locales which will never be used does not make sense. Obviously, it is the point of locales to let users configure something else than en_US, so if something crashes without en_US, it is not a configuration problem.
In any case, the installation guide will not change based on some vague claims which others cannot read on.
-- Lahwaacz (talk) 20:43, 12 February 2019 (UTC)

Rewrite Proposal

I'm proposing a rewrite of the Installation guide. I can provide a rough draft of this proposal. My reasoning for proposing such a rewrite is to make it more inviting for new comers of all platforms and all experience levels. The article will consist of screenshots.

—This unsigned comment is by LinuxPhreak (talk) 12:44, 17 February 2019‎. Please sign your posts with ~~~~!

The article will definitely not consist of screenshots which are useless for text-based things. For the rest, the article should evolve gradually instead of with a single rewrite. Feel free to propose the individual changes or make a draft in your user (sub)page. -- Lahwaacz (talk) 12:59, 17 February 2019 (UTC)
The gist of the reverted draft on this page was:
  • In #Verify signature section add gpg4win and gpgtools for Windows and OSX users respectively with screenshots approved by community.
  • In #Connect to the Internet section add wifi-menu and wpa_supplicant usage example for wireless configuration.
  • In #Partition the disks section add parted, fdisk and cfdisk examples.
While I disagree with these solutions they showcase some of the already known problems with the guide:
I would suggest to familiarize yourself again with Help:Reading and existing talk topics on this page in addition to Lahwaacz' suggestion.
-- Svito (talk) 15:01, 17 February 2019 (UTC)

SSH

For me the first thing I wanna do is connect to the new server by SSH! Then I can copy/paste commands, sit at my own workplace with multiple screens, and access the wiki and Google etc etc etc. Am I really the only one? Or does the majority really sit in front of their new linux box with a seperate monitor, keyb and mouse? I would be surprised! Please add, as one of the very first sections, how to enable SSH: -passwd -systemctl start sshd.service

Then you can start to configure and continue the installation :-) —This unsigned comment is by MrCalvin (talk) 23:35, 20 February 2019 (UTC). Please sign your posts with ~~~~!

All of that is already explained in the Install from SSH article. -- nl6720 (talk) 08:45, 21 February 2019 (UTC)