Difference between revisions of "Talk:Installation guide"

From ArchWiki
Jump to: navigation, search
(EFI / GPT too complex to set up with Arch: Remove closed discussion.)
m (Add a TIP under Post-installation: rm gap)
 
(864 intermediate revisions by more than 100 users not shown)
Line 1: Line 1:
== Read this first before add new suggestion ==
+
== Read this first before adding new suggestions ==
* Point of this page is to ''not'' become another Beginner's guide. It's meant to be a ''concise'' checklist of things to be done. So detailed install instruction should go to [[Beginners' Guide]].
 
* If there is something to discuss which should also affect the Beginner's guide, then do it on [[Talk:Beginners%27_Guide/Installation]]. An advanced user will find this page less bloated and easier to read, so let's KISS.
 
  
== update "Configure the bootloader" part ==
+
* systemd tools such as ''hostnamectl'', ''timedatectl'' and ''localectl'' [https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/798#issuecomment-126568596 do not work] in the installation chroot environment, so please do not propose to use them in the guide unless you can prove that they have been made to work also in that case. See [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Talk:Beginners%27_guide&oldid=388727#General_problems], [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Talk:Beginners%27_guide&oldid=404695#Replace_commands_with_their_systemd_equivalents], [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Talk:Beginners%27_guide&oldid=418662#Utilizing_systemd_tools] and [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Talk:Installation_guide&oldid=434985#change_configuration_system_from_old_way_to_new_way.28using_systemd_commands.29] for some past discussions about this issue.
to install grub-bios: install guide say:
+
* {{ic|localectl list-keymaps}} does not work due to bug {{Bug|46725}}. For the chosen replacement command, see [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Talk:Beginners%27_guide&oldid=435044#localectl].
 +
* {{ic|localhost}} must be set explicitely in {{ic|/etc/hosts}}, as it is otherwise resolved over the network. See {{Bug|56684}}.
 +
-- [[ArchWiki:Administrators|The ArchWiki Administrators]] 22:17, 2 September 2016 (UTC)
  
''Configure the bootloader: refer back to the appropriate article from the bootloader installation section.''
+
__TOC__
  
at [[Installation_Guide#Configure_system]]
+
== pacman-key --populate ==
  
At this point I did:
+
:''[Moved from [[Talk:Beginners' guide]]. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 20:38, 12 July 2016 (UTC)]''
  grub-mkconfig > /boot/grub/grub.cfg
 
  
then:
+
Reference: https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Beginners%27_guide&diff=next&oldid=411670
  grub-install /dev/sda
+
I tried to install Archlinux on my new computer and got stuck. Only using the {{ic|pacman-key --populate archlinux}} helped me. I think I am not the only one having this problem. But why did you undo it? {{Unsigned|20:38, 12 December 2015‎|Sandstorm}}
 +
:This command is already run for the new system (by installation of archlinux-keyring), so running it by hand shouldn't be required for most users. Of course, things can go wrong (how old was the ISO you used to install the system?), but that belongs in Troubleshooting sections of the respective articles, which are linked at the beginning of the guide. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 19:52, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
 +
::I had downloaded the ISO just yesterday, minutes before the install. Only that command installed the keys. Probably I should open a bug if you can confirm the issue?
 +
:::Did you have to run pacman-key after, or before pacstrap? And do you recall what the error messages said exactly? (See also {{Bug|31286}}) -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 20:15, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
 +
::::I had to run after pacstrap. As far as I remember, pacstrap stopped after trying to download the keys. The error message was something like shown in this forum post: https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=165367
 +
:::::Well then, as you suggested, I'd open a bug report. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 20:34, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
 +
::::::Done. Could you check if the description is good. I could not find an appropriate category, so I though Packages:Core might be the closest one. https://bugs.archlinux.org/task/47351 --[[User:Sandstorm|Sandstorm]] ([[User talk:Sandstorm|talk]]) 20:48, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
 +
:::::::Thanks, the description looks OK. If the category e.a is not right, [[Special:Contributions/Scimmia|User:Scimmia]] should fix it. :P -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 13:59, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
  
--[[User:Nilzao|Nilzao]]
+
::::::::Hmm, looks like it was closed with "Works for me" ... not very enlightening. All I can suggest is to further improve on [[Pacman/Package signing]] and related articles, and recheck if they're accessible enough from the Beginners' guide. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 21:59, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
  
:: I agree, although I use grub-mkconfig -o /boot/grub/grub.cfg, these two commands are enough to install grub on most machines so might as well be part of the actual guide. As with all other commands, problems or alternative configurations can be explained at the linked detailed pages. [[User:Spider.007|Spider.007]] ([[User talk:Spider.007|talk]]) 11:48, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
+
== Switch to systemd-networkd ==
  
: I suggest to add a tip to follow instructions in https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Grub2#Install_to_440-byte_MBR_boot_code_region - I must do it at every installation --[[User:Loper|Loper]]
+
Next ISOs may use systemd-networkd instead of dhcpcd, see [https://lists.archlinux.org/pipermail/arch-releng/2016-July/003739.html] -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 10:26, 19 July 2016 (UTC)
  
:: Instead of the link suggested by Loper, I'd go for the following: https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Grub#Install_grub-bios_boot_files
+
== Link to the German version ==
:: As there are several places to install grub, might as well show that. This is something that needs to be fixed sometime soon as there are instructions to install grub2 after chrooting. These instructions link to the '#Configure the system' section, which fails to mention installation of the bootloader. This is where I suggest posting the link.
 
:: --[[User:Ryeguy146|Ryeguy146]] ([[User talk:Ryeguy146|talk]]) 12:57, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
 
  
I just went through an Arch installation following this guide. Please at least mention the need to initialize the MBR with a link to the appropriate section in the Grub article. It was frustrating to reboot to see an "Operating system not found" message. --[[User:Takaitra|Takaitra]] ([[User talk:Takaitra|talk]]) 16:24, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
+
Instead of [[de:Arch Install Scripts]] you could choose [[de:Anleitung für Einsteiger]] it means "Beginner's Guid" and is a very
 +
detailed artikel for very new arch users and the future experts.
  
== Link Elinks to wiki ==
+
:Thank you, [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Installation_guide&type=revision&diff=509961&oldid=508505 done]. -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 16:31, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
  
Just read that elinks is included on install iso, maybe add an alias/script to allow loading of wiki guide installation guide? --[[User:Mr Green|Mr Green]]
+
::This was already proposed last year and rejected: [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Talk:Installation_guide&oldid=466950#Suggesting_different_page_for_German_translation]. I don't see what has changed since then.  If someone adds me as admin to the german wiki or changes the protection settings, I can update [[de:Arch Install Scripts]] as required. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 18:13, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
:It's included in the /root directory. [[User:Thestinger|thestinger]] ([[User talk:Thestinger|talk]]) 18:08, 27 October 2012 (UTC)
 
  
== Change section "Connect to the internet" ==
+
:::I see, I didn't remember that discussion so I've reverted the change, hopefully you'll make it to update the translation, let's leave this open until the problem is solved, otherwise this kind of suggestion will keep appearing recurrently. -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 17:53, 7 February 2018 (UTC)
  
Since the installation guide is now part of the iso image, I'd like to see a few references to the manpages of the necessary tools here, since you cannot open the network related wiki pages. Maybe something like this would be acceptable:
+
== Network configuration ==
  Assuming a wired ethernet connection, running dhclient or dhcpcd is
 
  sufficient to get a lease. Otherwise set up the connection manually
 
  using ip add, wpa_supplicant (WLAN with WPA), pppoe-setup (DSL), etc.
 
  You can also create and use netcfg profiles. Read more in the manpages:
 
  ip(8), wpa_supplicant(8), pppoe(8), netcfg(8), netcfg-profiles(5)
 
A reminder to install the packages for the internet connection in the pacstrap section would also be nice. -- [[User:progandy|progandy]]
 
  
== Suggestions to update this guide as part of ISO ==
+
:The newly installed environment has no network connection activated by default. See [[Network configuration#Network management]].
Since this guide is now being included as 'install.txt' in the ISO, it might be beneficial to incorporate the following changes:
 
* Entirely remove the '''1. Download''' section and move it to the Download area of the archlinux.org page. This document here is about installing, not downloading, checking, burning discs or dd'ing. The majority of users reading this have likely already booted up the install medium.
 
* Begin or end the document by mentioning the new archlinux(7) man page which explains the location of important system configuration files
 
# man archlinux
 
* Slightly expand the '''6. Connect to the internet''' section to include the most basic examples of setting up a private network using a dynamic and static IP address. (Right now it's only a single paragraph/line.) It's a vital installation step and should actually be moved to the top as one of the first actions during system setup. This fact should be emphasized.
 
  
Obtain dynamic IP
+
:For [[Wireless configuration]], [[install]] the {{Pkg|iw}} and {{Pkg|wpa_supplicant}} packages, as well as needed [[Wireless#Installing driver/firmware|firmware packages]]. Optionally install {{Pkg|dialog}} for usage of ''wifi-menu''.
# dhcpcd
 
  
Set static IP
+
The Network configuration section is rubbish. It doesn't explain that wifi-menu is part of [[netctl]] and telling users to install both iw ''and'' wpa_supplicant is plainly wrong. I would replace it with a DRY "See [[Network configuration]]." but maintainers aren't trusted to edit the [[Installation guide]]. --[[User:Larivact|Larivact]] ([[User talk:Larivact|talk]]) 17:09, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
# ip link set dev eth0 up
 
# ip addr add 192.168.1.2/24 dev eth0
 
# ip route add default via 192.168.1.1
 
# echo "nameserver 8.8.8.8" >> /etc/resolv.conf
 
  
--[[User:MajorTom|MajorTom]]
+
:If maintainers go on the talk page and plainly state "this section is rubbish" while indicating they would push their change without discussion, then no, I wouldn't trust maintainers with editing this central article. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 21:09, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
  
:* I can agree to all your suggestions, I wonder why no one is modifying the wiki. Internet connection setup is the most important part and should be covered more extensively. In addition to your changes, mention the manpages and configuration templates for netcfg and pppoe-setup/connect. The boot medium must at least contain easy accesible information in order to read all pages referenced in the installation guide. There should also be mentioned that elinks is installed and can be used to access the wiki. --[[User:Progandy|Progandy]] ([[User talk:Progandy|talk]]) 21:50, 24 August 2012 (UTC)
+
:I would agree linking appropriate article would suit more than current section, given deprecation of Beginners' Guide for similar reasons.
 +
:It is not that maintainers aren't trusted, but that MediaWiki doesn't allow specifying what user groups can perform edits, the choice is only among all, only auto-confirmed or only admins [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=ArchWiki_talk:Contributing&oldid=512883], plus we need to discuss edits to central wiki articles beforehand anyway [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=User_talk:Svito&oldid=511693]. -- [[User:Svito|Svito]] ([[User talk:Svito|talk]]) 20:03, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
  
:* The {{ic|dhcpcd}} network daemon is started automatically: [http://www.archlinux.org/news/install-media-20120804-available/], [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Beginners%27_Guide#Network_setup], so there's no reason to start it manually. --[[User:DSpider|DSpider]] ([[User talk:DSpider|talk]]) 08:17, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
+
::I've wanted to create additional groups for a while now (should be simple with LocalSettings.php published). Anyone interested should be able to write a patch and send it to the admins. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 21:09, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
  
== Keymaps ==
+
:Indeed "rubbish" wasn't a very wise choice of a word, a lot of volunteer effort has been put to get to the current state of the wiki, of course everything can always be improved.
 +
:In particular, the history of that section basically is [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Beginners%27_guide&oldid=446855#Network_configuration Beginners' guide#Network configuration] > [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Installation_guide&diff=442466&oldid=442463] > [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Installation_guide&diff=442470&oldid=442469].
 +
:I'd be in favor of simply restoring a similar state to [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Installation_guide&oldid=442463#Network_configuration], i.e. I'd link [[Network configuration]] but also [[Wireless network configuration]] directly, and drop the rest of the details.
 +
:-- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 16:19, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
  
As this guide mentions the loading of keymaps using loadkeys there should be at least a very small example about /etc/vconsole.conf
+
::[https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Installation_guide&diff=522153&oldid=521933] With the recent changes to [[Network configuration]] article, we may make similar changes to [[Installation guide#Connect to the Internet]]. Even a specific link to [[Wireless network configuration]] should no longer be required, since you need to follow [[Network configuration#DHCP]] anyway and [[Wireless]] is linked from [[Network configuration#Setup]]. Proposed wording:
  
Either not talk about keymaps or tell how to make it correct. When this is used as a checklist, the setup of the keymap should not be missing.
+
:::The installation image enables the [[dhcpcd]] daemon on boot for [https://git.archlinux.org/archiso.git/tree/configs/releng/airootfs/etc/udev/rules.d/81-dhcpcd.rules wired] network devices. The connection may be checked with:
: [[KEYMAP]] page link added. Close. -- [[User:Fengchao|Fengchao]] ([[User talk:Fengchao|talk]]) 04:03, 4 September 2012 (UTC)
+
::: {{ic|# ping archlinux.org}}
 +
:::If no connection is available, [[stop]] the ''dhcpcd'' service:
 +
::: {{ic|# systemctl stop dhcpcd@<TAB>}}
 +
:::Proceed with instructions in [[Network configuration]].
  
:: The section on keymaps and fonts links only to the KEYMAP page. An additional link regarding setting default console font should be added to:
+
::If that's a bit too short we might expand the {{man|8|ping}} example, compare expansion template in [[Network_configuration#Ping]]. --[[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 16:38, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Fonts#Console_fonts
 
  
== add a step: setting the clock ==
+
:::I actually prefer the current style with the systemctl example, using the ic template and a spelled-out instruction to press Tab. I don't see the need to expand further on ping directly in this page.
 +
:::On a second thought with respect to my previous post, I'm fine with dropping direct links to [[Wireless network configuration]] and only point to [[Network configuration]] as proposed in OP, i.e. also in [[Installation guide#Network configuration]] (I think we should be consistent between the two network-configuration sections).
 +
:::Another idea, we could merge [[Installation guide#Hostname]] into [[Installation guide#Network configuration]] now, since [[Hostname]] lands in [[Network configuration]] anyway, and even if that section is moved to [[DNS configuration]], it's still all network setup.
 +
:::-- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 15:08, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
  
Lots of things care about the clock being more-or-less correct, e.g. pacman-key will not work at all if the clock is too far out. Lots of brand new computers come with the clock set to something in the distant past, which causes weird problems during the install. [[User:Thetrivialstuff|Thetrivialstuff]] ([[User talk:Thetrivialstuff|talk]]) 23:14, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
+
::::I've removed the [[Wireless network configuration]] link from both sections. As it stands it cannot be used independently of [[Network configuration]] anyway. It's the devil or the blue sea - when configuring a simple wireless connection, users have to wade through pages of possibly unrelated information in [[Network configuration]] or be confused by missing steps in [[Wireless network configuration]]. Sometimes I believe that things would be much easier if our user base didn't value "choice" as much.
 +
::::About the ''systemctl'' example, after all this time I'm still not sure on the {{ic|Tab}} instructions. We never finished the relevant discussion in [[Help_talk:Reading]] and the steps to fill in (choosing the right ethernet adapter, tab-completing it and pressing return) are not necessarily obvious.
 +
::::About [[Installation guide#Hostname]], I'm fine with moving this section under [[Installation guide#Network configuration]]. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 23:22, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
  
== pacman-key --init / populate? ==
+
:::::I've merged #Hostname into #Network_configuration.
 +
:::::I hear you about the complexity of the network configuration pages, but it's a huge topic, I'll leave it to [[Talk:Network configuration]].
 +
:::::I'm going to reply to [[Help talk:Reading#Mention tab completion.3F]], but regarding this instance I propose the following:
 +
::::::If no connection is available, [[stop]] the ''dhcpcd'' service with {{ic|systemctl stop dhcpcd@''interface''}}; you can [[Wikipedia:Command-line_completion|tab-complete]] the {{ic|''interface''}} name. Then proceed to configure the network as described in [[Network configuration]].
 +
:::::-- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 15:49, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
  
Isn't this a required step? pacstrap does not seem to do it on its own. [[User:Thetrivialstuff|Thetrivialstuff]] ([[User talk:Thetrivialstuff|talk]]) 23:15, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
+
::::::I'd like "where the {{ic|interface}} name can be [[Wikipedia:Command-line_completion|tab-completed]]" better, but that's just a detail. -- [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 16:33, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
:Edit: Ah; I think this was related to the "set the clock" step -- I see that there is a pacman keyring init in the boot sequence of the latest media, but it (silently?) fails if the local clock is wrong.
 
::https://mailman.archlinux.org/pipermail/arch-releng/2012-July/002708.html --[[User:Bluewind|Bluewind]] ([[User talk:Bluewind|talk]]) 09:10, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
 
  
== Link to UEFI Bootloaders page ==
+
:::::::Implemented [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Installation_guide&diff=523411&oldid=523346] -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 16:50, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
  
Instead of telling the user to install GRUB(2) alone in case of UEFI, direct the reader to the [[UEFI_Bootloaders]] page which provides info about all the UEFI bootloaders capable of booting linux kernel. Also how can I edit the guide, there is no "edit" tab shown on top of the page. Is this page restricted to few authors only? -- [[User:The.ridikulus.rat|Keshav P R]] ([[User talk:The.ridikulus.rat|talk]]) 15:31, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
+
:::::::How about we add a sentence to [[Installation_guide#Network_configuration]] describing how to restore use of ''dhcpcd'' as done on the installation medium? That way if the connection already worked on installation people only need a brief look at [[dhcpcd]]. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 15:48, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
  
==Styling==
+
::::::::I think that would just hide the possibility of choice from users. Maybe just say that dhcpcd is not enabled on the installed system without recommending anything. -- [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 17:34, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
  
* The "'''Install a bootloader'''" section should be a bullet point above "Configure the bootloader: refer back to the appropriate ...", no need to have them separate. Using pacstrap to install the bootloader just seems silly (especially since they were also merged in the Beginner's Guide). Also, commands after {{ic|arch-chroot}} would look better if they were indented with "<nowiki>: {{bc|# <command>}}</nowiki>", kinda like how {{ic|# pacman-key -v <iso-file>.sig}} is at the beginning of the article. Would look much cleaner. --[[User:DSpider|DSpider]] ([[User talk:DSpider|talk]]) 16:33, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
+
:::::::May I suggest the following edit to this section:
 +
::::::::If no connection is available, or you are using a wireless device, [[stop]] the ''dhcpcd'' service with ... [[User:Tourian|Tourian]] ([[User talk:Tourian|talk]]) 04:45, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
 +
:::::::::That's already mentioned in the relevant section: [[Installation_guide#Connect_to_the_Internet]]. ''dhcpcd'' is not enabled by default in the installed system so there is nothing to stop in [[Installation_guide#Network_configuration]]. -- [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 06:33, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
 +
::::::::::I guess the proposed wording is indeed for [[Installation_guide#Connect_to_the_Internet]], which as it stands has no mention of wireless devices (only implied through lack of connection) -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 10:05, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
 +
:::::::::::Yes, it is not explicit. The wording on 20 May 2018 at the end of [[Installation_guide#Connect_to_the_Internet]] was "Proceed with [[Network configuration]] for wired devices or [[Wireless network configuration]] for wireless devices", with the reference to wireless devices removed after the decision to send those on wireless connections to [[Network configuration]]. Therefore, how about starting this section with, "If you are using a wireless network device, proceed with [[Network Configuration]]. For wired devices, the installation image enables the [[dhcpcd]] daemon on boot. The connection..." and leave the rest as it is. -- [[User:Tourian|Tourian]] ([[User talk:Tourian|talk]]) 14:04, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
  
==Proposed changes to Beginners' Guide and link to Post-Installation==
+
::::::::::::I perhaps prefer the first wording you suggested, since we've always told people to disable the wired dhcpcd even when using a wireless connection, to rule out any possible conflicts. I don't feel strongly about this however.. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 16:03, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
Some major changes are under discussion in [[Talk:Beginners'_Guide#Guide_restructuring]]: some of them would require adjustments to this very guide, see for example [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Talk%3ABeginners%27_Guide&diff=224578&oldid=224567 this post].
 
  
Please reply in the linked discussion, '''not''' here.
+
== Why should a static IP be preferred over 127.0.1.1 in /etc/hosts? ==
  
-- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 12:15, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
+
"If the system has a permanent IP address, it should be used instead of 127.0.1.1."
  
:I've added the steps in [[Beginners' Guide/Post-Installation]] to this guide, which now directly sends users to [[Beginners' Guide/Extra]].
+
I think the ArchWiki should not just say do X but also why. [[User:Alad|Alad]] as you added this, perhaps you can explain?--[[User:Larivact|Larivact]] ([[User talk:Larivact|talk]]) 15:14, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
:If however [[Talk:Beginners' Guide#Guide restructuring]] will be implemented as planned, the [[Beginners' Guide]] will have a slightly different installation procedure than this guide, unless this one is updated too.
 
:-- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 14:08, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
 
  
::Shouldn't the information be added ''before'' "Unmount leftovers and reboot" ? By the way, the title should mention rebooting, because most likely a kernel update was involved. --[[User:DSpider|DSpider]] ([[User talk:DSpider|talk]]) 14:41, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
+
:In [[Network_configuration#Local hostname resolution]]: "For a system with a permanent IP address, that permanent IP address should be used instead of 127.0.1.1." -- [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 06:48, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
  
:::The link to Post-Installation was the last step of the guide, so that's the line I've replaced with the instructions from Post-Installation.
+
::[https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Network_configuration&diff=340138&oldid=333485 First] appearance in our wiki, cited [https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/debian-reference/ch05.en.html#_the_hostname_resolution source], also [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Talk:Network_configuration&oldid=360328#Hostname_resolution discussion]. -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 10:26, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
:::About rebooting in case of a kernel upgrade, I don't think it's necessary to state that since this guide is aimed at experienced users.
 
:::In any case, any reordering or modification of the various steps should better be approved by a Developer, and probably the forum or the mailing lists are better places than this talk page to involve them in such discussions.
 
:::-- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 14:59, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
 
  
::::Yeah, but at this point, you were instructed to reboot. In order to edit {{ic|pacman.conf}}, you need to mount the root partition. And to update your system, you need to chroot into it. It would be better if "Unmount leftovers" was renamed "Unmount leftovers and reboot", and added at the end (before the suggestion to read the instructions from '''Extra'''). --[[User:DSpider|DSpider]] ([[User talk:DSpider|talk]]) 15:07, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
+
== Add a TIP under Post-installation ==
  
:::::You are still instructed to reboot, aren't you? The "Unmount leftovers" section currently tells you to ''"reboot and then login into the new system with the root account"''. In the "new system", the correct partition is already mounted at /.
+
Under [[Installation_guide#Post-installation]], it may be a good idea to add a TIP like this for new (or even existing) users:
:::::Whether or not configuring pacman, updating the system and adding a user would be better done in the chroot before rebooting, it's something that should be discussed with a Developer. I too think that it would make more sense, requiring one less reboot in case of a kernel upgrade.
+
{{Tip|Create an account at [https://wiki.archlinux.org/ ArchWiki] and add [[General recommendations]] page to your [[Special:Watchlist|Watchlist]] to automatically get alerts for new recommendation or changes to existing recommendations. You may also add other Wiki pages of your liking to the Watchlist so as to always stay up-to-date with them.}}
:::::-- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 15:18, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
+
-- [[User:Amish|Amish]] ([[User talk:Amish|talk]]) 01:19, 10 June 2018 (UTC)
:::::Renaming "Unmount leftovers" to "Unmount leftovers and reboot" is safe anyway, so I've done that. -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 15:37, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
 
:::::@DSpider: you're quite active on the forum, why don't you propose your idea there? I think it would be interesting to discuss it. -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 14:11, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
 
:::::Ok, after reading [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Talk%3AInstallation_Guide&diff=226203&oldid=225070 this] I realize that maybe I haven't been clear enough, so I'll try to explain everything more thoroughly.
 
:::::#The current procedure makes you [[Installation_Guide#Configure_the_system|configure the system]] in the '''chroot''' environment from the '''live''' system.
 
:::::#Then, still in the '''live''' system, it [[Installation_Guide#Unmount and reboot|asks]] you to '''exit''' the chroot, unmount the partitions for the '''new''' system, '''reboot''' and login into the '''new''' system. Now, I refuse to write more explicitly in the guide that you should boot into the '''new''' system, and not again in the '''live''' system, in order to login into the new system.
 
:::::#Since you are now into the '''new''' system ('''not''' the live system), the root partition is mounted at {{ic|/}}, not at {{ic|/mnt/}}, so you should be able to configure pacman, update the system and add a user wihtout chrooting. Now, if you've tested the procedure and really noticed that for some obscure-to-me reason you still need to chroot to /mnt in order to do those operations, please ask for clarifications in the forum because I wouldn't be able to answer any more.
 
:::::Last thing, and I think this is the 3rd or 4th time I write it, I '''agree''' with you that configuring pacman etc. could easily be done in the chroot environment at step 1, but you should '''propose''' that change '''in the forum''' first, since it would be a change in the official installation procedure and I won't take responsibility for that.
 
:::::I think this is the best I can do here, the next step to explain all this could be making a movie or a five-act play, but I hope it's not necessary :)
 
:::::-- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 05:56, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
 
  
== "Configure the network" is missing ==
+
:It's certainly an interesting suggestion. I'm not sure if it's in the scope of the installation guide however; maybe [[Help:Reading]] is better suited? -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 21:26, 10 June 2018 (UTC)
  
Basically, you establish an internet connection, but you also need to configure the network, so that you can connect after rebooting. The Beginners' Guide [[Beginners'_Guide#Configure_the_network|mentions]] it: ''You need to configure the network again, but this time for your newly installed environment. The procedure and prerequisites are very similar to the one described above, except we are going to make it persistent and automatically run at boot.'' And this information seems to be missing from the installation guide. --[[User:DSpider|DSpider]] ([[User talk:DSpider|talk]]) 13:51, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
+
::[[Installation guide]] would always be read by those installing Arch Linux. But not necessarily [[Help:Reading]] (today is first time I read it in 4-5 years with Arch Linux). So Installation guide will bring in more awareness and more involvement of users.
  
:I don't think that any Developer is watching this talk page, you'd better report this in the forum or mailing list. -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 10:43, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
+
:::That's a bit of an issue since the Installation guide assumes users have read [[Help:Reading]]... though I'm not unaware of this, see e.g. [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Installation_guide&diff=508490&oldid=508486] -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 09:55, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
  
::I'm not sure if this should be a part of the installation guide. -- [[User:Karol|Karol]] ([[User talk:Karol|talk]]) 15:20, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
+
::::Actually the purpose of [[Help:Reading]] is to tell users how to read the page / article but not what can be done after Installation. Here Tip is intended to suggest what to do after installation. i.e. Post-installation.
 +
::::[[User:Amish|Amish]] ([[User talk:Amish|talk]]) 12:15, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
  
:::Of course it should. Because after rebooting (which you are instructed to), you're left with a borked machine. You need to boot the installation media again, establish an internet connection, mount the partitions and chroot into your system, and only THEN install the required packages. There should at least be a line that mentions [[netcfg]]. Because I read that it can handle both wired and wireless connections, and it's included in {{Grp|base}} now. --[[User:DSpider|DSpider]] ([[User talk:DSpider|talk]]) 07:04, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
+
:I'd word it less imperatively:
::::I'm sorry if I'm missing something, but there is [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Installation_Guide#Connect_to_the_internet a line about netcfg already] and was there a month ago when this discussion was started. If you want to add a note that after rebooting the user has to enable dhcpcd service etc. (so he should have all the needed packages installed beforehand) that's fine with me. -- [[User:Karol|Karol]] ([[User talk:Karol|talk]]) 10:09, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
+
::{{Tip|You can stay up to date with ArchWiki articles by [[Special:CreateAccount|creating an account]] and adding articles of interest to [[Special:Watchlist|your Watchlist]].}}
 +
:--[[User:Larivact|Larivact]] ([[User talk:Larivact|talk]]) 04:47, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
  
== Install a bootloader ==
+
::Sounds good to me. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 09:55, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
  
Make it more visible that it is a choise between Grub/Syslinux.
+
::My intention was to highlight [[General recommendations]] for Watchlist because thats a page every Arch user must follow to keep their Arch Linux well maintained. Other important page that I feel must be highlighted to be added in Watchlist is [[System maintenance]].
 +
::
 +
::OR we can have Tip like this:
 +
::{{Tip|You can stay up to date with ArchWiki articles by [[Special:CreateAccount|creating an account]] and adding articles of interest to [[Special:Watchlist|your Watchlist]]. Few articles you may want start with are at [[Main Page]]}}
 +
::-- [[User:Amish|Amish]] ([[User talk:Amish|talk]]) 12:32, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
  
== 2 amendments to do ==
+
== <s>Fix broken link</s> ==
  
In '''Configure the system''':
+
Under "Install the base packages" the link [https://projects.archlinux.org/archiso.git/tree/configs/releng/packages.both packages.both] should be updated to [https://projects.archlinux.org/archiso.git/tree/configs/releng/packages.x86_64 packages.x86_64] -- [[User:CrypticInsanity|CrypticInsanity]] ([[User talk:CrypticInsanity|talk]]) 02:58, 27 June 2018 (UTC)
  
There is only one link on
+
:Fixed, thanks. -- [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 17:18, 30 June 2018 (UTC)
    ''Add console keymap and font preferences in /etc/vconsole.conf''
 
This link should apply only to "console keymap".<br>
 
"font preferences" should link to [[Fonts#Console_fonts]]
 
  
 +
== <s>Localization</s> ==
  
There is also:
+
Regarding [[Special:Diff/448074/next]] I don't agree that locale and localization is same thing.
    ''Uncomment the selected locale in /etc/locale.gen and generate it with locale-gen.''
 
This should be removed as it has been already done during this step:
 
    ''Set locale preferences in /etc/locale.conf.''
 
  
Thanks and regards,
+
Locale is only one part of system localization, see also [[Internationalization]] which should be in turn renamed to [[Localization]].
[[User:Boism|Boism]] ([[User talk:Boism|talk]]) 21:10, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
 
  
== The configuration and installation of GRUB in the boot sector is absent ==
+
-- [[User:Svito|Svito]] ([[User talk:Svito|talk]]) 14:21, 13 July 2018 (UTC)
 
 
In the GRUB section the guide says:
 
 
 
"Install GRUB after chrooting (refer to the #Configure the system section). "
 
 
 
But isn't, and following the guide my system fail in the first startup, the lines to add in "Configure the system section" are:
 
 
 
In the chroot:
 
# grub-mkconfig > /boot/grub/grub.cfg
 
# grub-install <device>
 
 
 
Or a comment like:
 
 
* Configure and install GRUB using grub-mkconfig and grub-install, see [[Grub|GRUB page]] for more info
 
 
 
== Mount the partitions ==
 
 
 
Please also mention that if using a swap partition the user should execute swapon at the "Mount to partitions" step. It is important to do this so that the swap partition is included when generating the fstab later on in the guide.--[[User:Takaitra|Takaitra]] ([[User talk:Takaitra|talk]]) 17:13, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
 

Latest revision as of 15:43, 13 July 2018

Read this first before adding new suggestions

  • systemd tools such as hostnamectl, timedatectl and localectl do not work in the installation chroot environment, so please do not propose to use them in the guide unless you can prove that they have been made to work also in that case. See [1], [2], [3] and [4] for some past discussions about this issue.
  • localectl list-keymaps does not work due to bug FS#46725. For the chosen replacement command, see [5].
  • localhost must be set explicitely in /etc/hosts, as it is otherwise resolved over the network. See FS#56684.

-- The ArchWiki Administrators 22:17, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

pacman-key --populate

[Moved from Talk:Beginners' guide. -- Alad (talk) 20:38, 12 July 2016 (UTC)]

Reference: https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Beginners%27_guide&diff=next&oldid=411670 I tried to install Archlinux on my new computer and got stuck. Only using the pacman-key --populate archlinux helped me. I think I am not the only one having this problem. But why did you undo it? —This unsigned comment is by Sandstorm (talk) 20:38, 12 December 2015‎. Please sign your posts with ~~~~!

This command is already run for the new system (by installation of archlinux-keyring), so running it by hand shouldn't be required for most users. Of course, things can go wrong (how old was the ISO you used to install the system?), but that belongs in Troubleshooting sections of the respective articles, which are linked at the beginning of the guide. -- Alad (talk) 19:52, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
I had downloaded the ISO just yesterday, minutes before the install. Only that command installed the keys. Probably I should open a bug if you can confirm the issue?
Did you have to run pacman-key after, or before pacstrap? And do you recall what the error messages said exactly? (See also FS#31286) -- Alad (talk) 20:15, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
I had to run after pacstrap. As far as I remember, pacstrap stopped after trying to download the keys. The error message was something like shown in this forum post: https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=165367
Well then, as you suggested, I'd open a bug report. -- Alad (talk) 20:34, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
Done. Could you check if the description is good. I could not find an appropriate category, so I though Packages:Core might be the closest one. https://bugs.archlinux.org/task/47351 --Sandstorm (talk) 20:48, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
Thanks, the description looks OK. If the category e.a is not right, User:Scimmia should fix it. :P -- Alad (talk) 13:59, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
Hmm, looks like it was closed with "Works for me" ... not very enlightening. All I can suggest is to further improve on Pacman/Package signing and related articles, and recheck if they're accessible enough from the Beginners' guide. -- Alad (talk) 21:59, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

Switch to systemd-networkd

Next ISOs may use systemd-networkd instead of dhcpcd, see [6] -- Alad (talk) 10:26, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

Link to the German version

Instead of de:Arch Install Scripts you could choose de:Anleitung für Einsteiger it means "Beginner's Guid" and is a very detailed artikel for very new arch users and the future experts.

Thank you, done. -- Kynikos (talk) 16:31, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
This was already proposed last year and rejected: [7]. I don't see what has changed since then. If someone adds me as admin to the german wiki or changes the protection settings, I can update de:Arch Install Scripts as required. -- Alad (talk) 18:13, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
I see, I didn't remember that discussion so I've reverted the change, hopefully you'll make it to update the translation, let's leave this open until the problem is solved, otherwise this kind of suggestion will keep appearing recurrently. -- Kynikos (talk) 17:53, 7 February 2018 (UTC)

Network configuration

The newly installed environment has no network connection activated by default. See Network configuration#Network management.
For Wireless configuration, install the iw and wpa_supplicant packages, as well as needed firmware packages. Optionally install dialog for usage of wifi-menu.

The Network configuration section is rubbish. It doesn't explain that wifi-menu is part of netctl and telling users to install both iw and wpa_supplicant is plainly wrong. I would replace it with a DRY "See Network configuration." but maintainers aren't trusted to edit the Installation guide. --Larivact (talk) 17:09, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

If maintainers go on the talk page and plainly state "this section is rubbish" while indicating they would push their change without discussion, then no, I wouldn't trust maintainers with editing this central article. -- Alad (talk) 21:09, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
I would agree linking appropriate article would suit more than current section, given deprecation of Beginners' Guide for similar reasons.
It is not that maintainers aren't trusted, but that MediaWiki doesn't allow specifying what user groups can perform edits, the choice is only among all, only auto-confirmed or only admins [8], plus we need to discuss edits to central wiki articles beforehand anyway [9]. -- Svito (talk) 20:03, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
I've wanted to create additional groups for a while now (should be simple with LocalSettings.php published). Anyone interested should be able to write a patch and send it to the admins. -- Alad (talk) 21:09, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
Indeed "rubbish" wasn't a very wise choice of a word, a lot of volunteer effort has been put to get to the current state of the wiki, of course everything can always be improved.
In particular, the history of that section basically is Beginners' guide#Network configuration > [10] > [11].
I'd be in favor of simply restoring a similar state to [12], i.e. I'd link Network configuration but also Wireless network configuration directly, and drop the rest of the details.
-- Kynikos (talk) 16:19, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
[13] With the recent changes to Network configuration article, we may make similar changes to Installation guide#Connect to the Internet. Even a specific link to Wireless network configuration should no longer be required, since you need to follow Network configuration#DHCP anyway and Wireless is linked from Network configuration#Setup. Proposed wording:
The installation image enables the dhcpcd daemon on boot for wired network devices. The connection may be checked with:
# ping archlinux.org
If no connection is available, stop the dhcpcd service:
# systemctl stop dhcpcd@<TAB>
Proceed with instructions in Network configuration.
If that's a bit too short we might expand the ping(8) example, compare expansion template in Network_configuration#Ping. --Alad (talk) 16:38, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
I actually prefer the current style with the systemctl example, using the ic template and a spelled-out instruction to press Tab. I don't see the need to expand further on ping directly in this page.
On a second thought with respect to my previous post, I'm fine with dropping direct links to Wireless network configuration and only point to Network configuration as proposed in OP, i.e. also in Installation guide#Network configuration (I think we should be consistent between the two network-configuration sections).
Another idea, we could merge Installation guide#Hostname into Installation guide#Network configuration now, since Hostname lands in Network configuration anyway, and even if that section is moved to DNS configuration, it's still all network setup.
-- Kynikos (talk) 15:08, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
I've removed the Wireless network configuration link from both sections. As it stands it cannot be used independently of Network configuration anyway. It's the devil or the blue sea - when configuring a simple wireless connection, users have to wade through pages of possibly unrelated information in Network configuration or be confused by missing steps in Wireless network configuration. Sometimes I believe that things would be much easier if our user base didn't value "choice" as much.
About the systemctl example, after all this time I'm still not sure on the Tab instructions. We never finished the relevant discussion in Help_talk:Reading and the steps to fill in (choosing the right ethernet adapter, tab-completing it and pressing return) are not necessarily obvious.
About Installation guide#Hostname, I'm fine with moving this section under Installation guide#Network configuration. -- Alad (talk) 23:22, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
I've merged #Hostname into #Network_configuration.
I hear you about the complexity of the network configuration pages, but it's a huge topic, I'll leave it to Talk:Network configuration.
I'm going to reply to Help talk:Reading#Mention tab completion.3F, but regarding this instance I propose the following:
If no connection is available, stop the dhcpcd service with systemctl stop dhcpcd@interface; you can tab-complete the interface name. Then proceed to configure the network as described in Network configuration.
-- Kynikos (talk) 15:49, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
I'd like "where the interface name can be tab-completed" better, but that's just a detail. -- Lahwaacz (talk) 16:33, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
Implemented [14] -- Alad (talk) 16:50, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
How about we add a sentence to Installation_guide#Network_configuration describing how to restore use of dhcpcd as done on the installation medium? That way if the connection already worked on installation people only need a brief look at dhcpcd. -- Alad (talk) 15:48, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
I think that would just hide the possibility of choice from users. Maybe just say that dhcpcd is not enabled on the installed system without recommending anything. -- Lahwaacz (talk) 17:34, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
May I suggest the following edit to this section:
If no connection is available, or you are using a wireless device, stop the dhcpcd service with ... Tourian (talk) 04:45, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
That's already mentioned in the relevant section: Installation_guide#Connect_to_the_Internet. dhcpcd is not enabled by default in the installed system so there is nothing to stop in Installation_guide#Network_configuration. -- Lahwaacz (talk) 06:33, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
I guess the proposed wording is indeed for Installation_guide#Connect_to_the_Internet, which as it stands has no mention of wireless devices (only implied through lack of connection) -- Alad (talk) 10:05, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
Yes, it is not explicit. The wording on 20 May 2018 at the end of Installation_guide#Connect_to_the_Internet was "Proceed with Network configuration for wired devices or Wireless network configuration for wireless devices", with the reference to wireless devices removed after the decision to send those on wireless connections to Network configuration. Therefore, how about starting this section with, "If you are using a wireless network device, proceed with Network Configuration. For wired devices, the installation image enables the dhcpcd daemon on boot. The connection..." and leave the rest as it is. -- Tourian (talk) 14:04, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
I perhaps prefer the first wording you suggested, since we've always told people to disable the wired dhcpcd even when using a wireless connection, to rule out any possible conflicts. I don't feel strongly about this however.. -- Alad (talk) 16:03, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

Why should a static IP be preferred over 127.0.1.1 in /etc/hosts?

"If the system has a permanent IP address, it should be used instead of 127.0.1.1."

I think the ArchWiki should not just say do X but also why. Alad as you added this, perhaps you can explain?--Larivact (talk) 15:14, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

In Network_configuration#Local hostname resolution: "For a system with a permanent IP address, that permanent IP address should be used instead of 127.0.1.1." -- Lahwaacz (talk) 06:48, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
First appearance in our wiki, cited source, also discussion. -- Kynikos (talk) 10:26, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Add a TIP under Post-installation

Under Installation_guide#Post-installation, it may be a good idea to add a TIP like this for new (or even existing) users:

Tip: Create an account at ArchWiki and add General recommendations page to your Watchlist to automatically get alerts for new recommendation or changes to existing recommendations. You may also add other Wiki pages of your liking to the Watchlist so as to always stay up-to-date with them.

-- Amish (talk) 01:19, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

It's certainly an interesting suggestion. I'm not sure if it's in the scope of the installation guide however; maybe Help:Reading is better suited? -- Alad (talk) 21:26, 10 June 2018 (UTC)
Installation guide would always be read by those installing Arch Linux. But not necessarily Help:Reading (today is first time I read it in 4-5 years with Arch Linux). So Installation guide will bring in more awareness and more involvement of users.
That's a bit of an issue since the Installation guide assumes users have read Help:Reading... though I'm not unaware of this, see e.g. [15] -- Alad (talk) 09:55, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
Actually the purpose of Help:Reading is to tell users how to read the page / article but not what can be done after Installation. Here Tip is intended to suggest what to do after installation. i.e. Post-installation.
Amish (talk) 12:15, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
I'd word it less imperatively:
Tip: You can stay up to date with ArchWiki articles by creating an account and adding articles of interest to your Watchlist.
--Larivact (talk) 04:47, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
Sounds good to me. -- Alad (talk) 09:55, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
My intention was to highlight General recommendations for Watchlist because thats a page every Arch user must follow to keep their Arch Linux well maintained. Other important page that I feel must be highlighted to be added in Watchlist is System maintenance.
OR we can have Tip like this:
Tip: You can stay up to date with ArchWiki articles by creating an account and adding articles of interest to your Watchlist. Few articles you may want start with are at Main Page
-- Amish (talk) 12:32, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

Fix broken link

Under "Install the base packages" the link packages.both should be updated to packages.x86_64 -- CrypticInsanity (talk) 02:58, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

Fixed, thanks. -- Lahwaacz (talk) 17:18, 30 June 2018 (UTC)

Localization

Regarding Special:Diff/448074/next I don't agree that locale and localization is same thing.

Locale is only one part of system localization, see also Internationalization which should be in turn renamed to Localization.

-- Svito (talk) 14:21, 13 July 2018 (UTC)