Difference between revisions of "Talk:Installation guide"

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-- [[ArchWiki:Administrators|The ArchWiki Administrators]] 22:17, 2 September 2016 (UTC)
 
-- [[ArchWiki:Administrators|The ArchWiki Administrators]] 22:17, 2 September 2016 (UTC)
 
__TOC__
 
__TOC__
 
== pacman-key --populate ==
 
 
:''[Moved from [[Talk:Beginners' guide]]. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 20:38, 12 July 2016 (UTC)]''
 
 
Reference: https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Beginners%27_guide&diff=next&oldid=411670
 
I tried to install Archlinux on my new computer and got stuck. Only using the {{ic|pacman-key --populate archlinux}} helped me. I think I am not the only one having this problem. But why did you undo it? {{Unsigned|20:38, 12 December 2015‎|Sandstorm}}
 
:This command is already run for the new system (by installation of archlinux-keyring), so running it by hand shouldn't be required for most users. Of course, things can go wrong (how old was the ISO you used to install the system?), but that belongs in Troubleshooting sections of the respective articles, which are linked at the beginning of the guide. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 19:52, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
 
::I had downloaded the ISO just yesterday, minutes before the install. Only that command installed the keys. Probably I should open a bug if you can confirm the issue?
 
:::Did you have to run pacman-key after, or before pacstrap? And do you recall what the error messages said exactly? (See also {{Bug|31286}}) -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 20:15, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
 
::::I had to run after pacstrap. As far as I remember, pacstrap stopped after trying to download the keys. The error message was something like shown in this forum post: https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=165367
 
:::::Well then, as you suggested, I'd open a bug report. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 20:34, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
 
::::::Done. Could you check if the description is good. I could not find an appropriate category, so I though Packages:Core might be the closest one. https://bugs.archlinux.org/task/47351 --[[User:Sandstorm|Sandstorm]] ([[User talk:Sandstorm|talk]]) 20:48, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
 
:::::::Thanks, the description looks OK. If the category e.a is not right, [[Special:Contributions/Scimmia|User:Scimmia]] should fix it. :P -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 13:59, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
 
 
::::::::Hmm, looks like it was closed with "Works for me" ... not very enlightening. All I can suggest is to further improve on [[Pacman/Package signing]] and related articles, and recheck if they're accessible enough from the Beginners' guide. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 21:59, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
 
  
 
== Link to the German version ==
 
== Link to the German version ==
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== Network configuration ==
 
== Network configuration ==
  
:The newly installed environment has no network connection activated by default. See [[Network configuration#Network management]].
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=== dhcpcd for installed environment ===
  
:For [[Wireless configuration]], [[install]] the {{Pkg|iw}} and {{Pkg|wpa_supplicant}} packages, as well as needed [[Wireless#Installing driver/firmware|firmware packages]]. Optionally install {{Pkg|dialog}} for usage of ''wifi-menu''.
+
How about we add a sentence to [[Installation_guide#Network_configuration]] describing how to restore use of ''dhcpcd'' as done on the installation medium? That way if the connection already worked on installation people only need a brief look at [[dhcpcd]]. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 15:48, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
  
The Network configuration section is rubbish. It doesn't explain that wifi-menu is part of [[netctl]] and telling users to install both iw ''and'' wpa_supplicant is plainly wrong. I would replace it with a DRY "See [[Network configuration]]." but maintainers aren't trusted to edit the [[Installation guide]]. --[[User:Larivact|Larivact]] ([[User talk:Larivact|talk]]) 17:09, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
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:I think that would just hide the possibility of choice from users. Maybe just say that dhcpcd is not enabled on the installed system without recommending anything. -- [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 17:34, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
  
:If maintainers go on the talk page and plainly state "this section is rubbish" while indicating they would push their change without discussion, then no, I wouldn't trust maintainers with editing this central article. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 21:09, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
+
=== once chrooted, one has to configure again ===
  
::Nah, [[User:Larivact|Larivact]] is right. I had to go to a completely different site to figure out that wifi-menu even exists. It should include the line: "For supported wireless devices run {{ic|wifi-menu}} to set up the network". Would have saved me a couple hours. I genuinely don't understand why you would include the tool, but have no reference to it (and please don't take this as an indication that you should just remove the tool). [[User:Klaymen|Klaymen]] ([[User talk:Klaymen|talk]]) 02:38, 24 December 2018 (UTC)
+
One chrooted, configuration file edited in the previous steps, will have to be redone in the chrooted environment (/etc/systemd/network/ files). This is the same for ntp configuration (/etc/systemd/timesyncd.conf).
  
:I would agree linking appropriate article would suit more than current section, given deprecation of Beginners' Guide for similar reasons.
+
This should be worth noting.
:It is not that maintainers aren't trusted, but that MediaWiki doesn't allow specifying what user groups can perform edits, the choice is only among all, only auto-confirmed or only admins [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=ArchWiki_talk:Contributing&oldid=512883], plus we need to discuss edits to central wiki articles beforehand anyway [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=User_talk:Svito&oldid=511693]. -- [[User:Svito|Svito]] ([[User talk:Svito|talk]]) 20:03, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
 
  
::I've wanted to create additional groups for a while now (should be simple with LocalSettings.php published). Anyone interested should be able to write a patch and send it to the admins. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 21:09, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
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{{unsigned|12:27, 14 May 2019‎|Mrechte}}
  
:Indeed "rubbish" wasn't a very wise choice of a word, a lot of volunteer effort has been put to get to the current state of the wiki, of course everything can always be improved.
+
:The guide does not say to edit anything under {{ic|/etc/systemd/}} in the first place, so there is nothing to be ''redone''. Furthermore, [[Installation guide#Network configuration]] says to "Complete the [[network configuration]] for the newly installed environment." -- [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 17:27, 17 May 2019 (UTC)
:In particular, the history of that section basically is [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Beginners%27_guide&oldid=446855#Network_configuration Beginners' guide#Network configuration] > [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Installation_guide&diff=442466&oldid=442463] > [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Installation_guide&diff=442470&oldid=442469].
 
:I'd be in favor of simply restoring a similar state to [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Installation_guide&oldid=442463#Network_configuration], i.e. I'd link [[Network configuration]] but also [[Wireless network configuration]] directly, and drop the rest of the details.
 
:-- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 16:19, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
 
 
 
::[https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Installation_guide&diff=522153&oldid=521933] With the recent changes to [[Network configuration]] article, we may make similar changes to [[Installation guide#Connect to the Internet]]. Even a specific link to [[Wireless network configuration]] should no longer be required, since you need to follow [[Network configuration#DHCP]] anyway and [[Wireless]] is linked from [[Network configuration#Setup]]. Proposed wording:
 
 
 
:::The installation image enables the [[dhcpcd]] daemon on boot for [https://git.archlinux.org/archiso.git/tree/configs/releng/airootfs/etc/udev/rules.d/81-dhcpcd.rules wired] network devices. The connection may be checked with:
 
::: {{ic|# ping archlinux.org}}
 
:::If no connection is available, [[stop]] the ''dhcpcd'' service:
 
::: {{ic|# systemctl stop dhcpcd@<TAB>}}
 
:::Proceed with instructions in [[Network configuration]].
 
 
 
::If that's a bit too short we might expand the {{man|8|ping}} example, compare expansion template in [[Network_configuration#Ping]]. --[[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 16:38, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
 
 
 
:::I actually prefer the current style with the systemctl example, using the ic template and a spelled-out instruction to press Tab. I don't see the need to expand further on ping directly in this page.
 
:::On a second thought with respect to my previous post, I'm fine with dropping direct links to [[Wireless network configuration]] and only point to [[Network configuration]] as proposed in OP, i.e. also in [[Installation guide#Network configuration]] (I think we should be consistent between the two network-configuration sections).
 
:::Another idea, we could merge [[Installation guide#Hostname]] into [[Installation guide#Network configuration]] now, since [[Hostname]] lands in [[Network configuration]] anyway, and even if that section is moved to [[DNS configuration]], it's still all network setup.
 
:::-- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 15:08, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
 
 
 
::::I've removed the [[Wireless network configuration]] link from both sections. As it stands it cannot be used independently of [[Network configuration]] anyway. It's the devil or the blue sea - when configuring a simple wireless connection, users have to wade through pages of possibly unrelated information in [[Network configuration]] or be confused by missing steps in [[Wireless network configuration]]. Sometimes I believe that things would be much easier if our user base didn't value "choice" as much.
 
::::About the ''systemctl'' example, after all this time I'm still not sure on the {{ic|Tab}} instructions. We never finished the relevant discussion in [[Help_talk:Reading]] and the steps to fill in (choosing the right ethernet adapter, tab-completing it and pressing return) are not necessarily obvious.
 
::::About [[Installation guide#Hostname]], I'm fine with moving this section under [[Installation guide#Network configuration]]. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 23:22, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
 
 
 
:::::I've merged #Hostname into #Network_configuration.
 
:::::I hear you about the complexity of the network configuration pages, but it's a huge topic, I'll leave it to [[Talk:Network configuration]].
 
:::::I'm going to reply to [[Help talk:Reading#Mention tab completion.3F]], but regarding this instance I propose the following:
 
::::::If no connection is available, [[stop]] the ''dhcpcd'' service with {{ic|systemctl stop dhcpcd@''interface''}}; you can [[Wikipedia:Command-line_completion|tab-complete]] the {{ic|''interface''}} name. Then proceed to configure the network as described in [[Network configuration]].
 
:::::-- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 15:49, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
 
 
 
::::::I'd like "where the {{ic|interface}} name can be [[Wikipedia:Command-line_completion|tab-completed]]" better, but that's just a detail. -- [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 16:33, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
 
 
 
:::::::Implemented [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Installation_guide&diff=523411&oldid=523346] -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 16:50, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
 
 
 
:::::::How about we add a sentence to [[Installation_guide#Network_configuration]] describing how to restore use of ''dhcpcd'' as done on the installation medium? That way if the connection already worked on installation people only need a brief look at [[dhcpcd]]. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 15:48, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
 
 
 
::::::::I think that would just hide the possibility of choice from users. Maybe just say that dhcpcd is not enabled on the installed system without recommending anything. -- [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 17:34, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
 
 
 
:::::::May I suggest the following edit to this section:
 
::::::::If no connection is available, or you are using a wireless device, [[stop]] the ''dhcpcd'' service with ... [[User:Tourian|Tourian]] ([[User talk:Tourian|talk]]) 04:45, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
 
:::::::::That's already mentioned in the relevant section: [[Installation_guide#Connect_to_the_Internet]]. ''dhcpcd'' is not enabled by default in the installed system so there is nothing to stop in [[Installation_guide#Network_configuration]]. -- [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 06:33, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
 
::::::::::I guess the proposed wording is indeed for [[Installation_guide#Connect_to_the_Internet]], which as it stands has no mention of wireless devices (only implied through lack of connection) -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 10:05, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
 
:::::::::::Yes, it is not explicit. The wording on 20 May 2018 at the end of [[Installation_guide#Connect_to_the_Internet]] was "Proceed with [[Network configuration]] for wired devices or [[Wireless network configuration]] for wireless devices", with the reference to wireless devices removed after the decision to send those on wireless connections to [[Network configuration]]. Therefore, how about starting this section with, "If you are using a wireless network device, proceed with [[Network Configuration]]. For wired devices, the installation image enables the [[dhcpcd]] daemon on boot. The connection..." and leave the rest as it is. -- [[User:Tourian|Tourian]] ([[User talk:Tourian|talk]]) 14:04, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
 
 
 
::::::::::::I perhaps prefer the first wording you suggested, since we've always told people to disable the wired dhcpcd even when using a wireless connection, to rule out any possible conflicts. I don't feel strongly about this however.. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 16:03, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
 
  
 
== Why should a static IP be preferred over 127.0.1.1 in /etc/hosts? ==
 
== Why should a static IP be preferred over 127.0.1.1 in /etc/hosts? ==
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::[https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Network_configuration&diff=340138&oldid=333485 First] appearance in our wiki, cited [https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/debian-reference/ch05.en.html#_the_hostname_resolution source], also [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Talk:Network_configuration&oldid=360328#Hostname_resolution discussion]. -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 10:26, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
 
::[https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Network_configuration&diff=340138&oldid=333485 First] appearance in our wiki, cited [https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/debian-reference/ch05.en.html#_the_hostname_resolution source], also [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Talk:Network_configuration&oldid=360328#Hostname_resolution discussion]. -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 10:26, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
 
== Add a TIP under Post-installation ==
 
 
Under [[Installation_guide#Post-installation]], it may be a good idea to add a TIP like this for new (or even existing) users:
 
{{Tip|Create an account at [https://wiki.archlinux.org/ ArchWiki] and add [[General recommendations]] page to your [[Special:Watchlist|Watchlist]] to automatically get alerts for new recommendation or changes to existing recommendations. You may also add other Wiki pages of your liking to the Watchlist so as to always stay up-to-date with them.}}
 
-- [[User:Amish|Amish]] ([[User talk:Amish|talk]]) 01:19, 10 June 2018 (UTC)
 
 
:It's certainly an interesting suggestion. I'm not sure if it's in the scope of the installation guide however; maybe [[Help:Reading]] is better suited? -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 21:26, 10 June 2018 (UTC)
 
 
::[[Installation guide]] would always be read by those installing Arch Linux. But not necessarily [[Help:Reading]] (today is first time I read it in 4-5 years with Arch Linux). So Installation guide will bring in more awareness and more involvement of users.
 
 
:::That's a bit of an issue since the Installation guide assumes users have read [[Help:Reading]]... though I'm not unaware of this, see e.g. [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Installation_guide&diff=508490&oldid=508486] -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 09:55, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
 
 
::::Actually the purpose of [[Help:Reading]] is to tell users how to read the page / article but not what can be done after Installation. Here Tip is intended to suggest what to do after installation. i.e. Post-installation.
 
::::[[User:Amish|Amish]] ([[User talk:Amish|talk]]) 12:15, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
 
 
:I'd word it less imperatively:
 
::{{Tip|You can stay up to date with ArchWiki articles by [[Special:CreateAccount|creating an account]] and adding articles of interest to [[Special:Watchlist|your Watchlist]].}}
 
:--[[User:Larivact|Larivact]] ([[User talk:Larivact|talk]]) 04:47, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
 
 
::Sounds good to me. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 09:55, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
 
 
::My intention was to highlight [[General recommendations]] for Watchlist because thats a page every Arch user must follow to keep their Arch Linux well maintained. Other important page that I feel must be highlighted to be added in Watchlist is [[System maintenance]].
 
::
 
::OR we can have Tip like this:
 
::{{Tip|You can stay up to date with ArchWiki articles by [[Special:CreateAccount|creating an account]] and adding articles of interest to [[Special:Watchlist|your Watchlist]]. Few articles you may want start with are at [[Main Page]]}}
 
::-- [[User:Amish|Amish]] ([[User talk:Amish|talk]]) 12:32, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
 
 
:What is the current state of this suggestion, because I believe it is very interesting. I have a preference for the first proposed TIP.
 
:-- [[User:Apollo22|Apollo22]] ([[User talk:Apollo22|talk]]) 19:23, 12 August 2018 (UTC)
 
 
:Why not just use bookmarks? Creating an account to follow changes seems more tedious, it's meant for editors. --[[User:Ubone|Ubone]] ([[User talk:Ubone|talk]]) 16:34, 22 September 2018 (UTC)
 
  
 
== Network Configuration -- WiFi discussion ==
 
== Network Configuration -- WiFi discussion ==
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::::That looks good to me. -- [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 14:57, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
 
::::That looks good to me. -- [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 14:57, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
  
== ArchWiki link ==
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== Wording in example layout table and size of EFI partition ==
 +
 
 +
=== Wording in example layout table ===
 +
 
 +
Regarding [[Installation_guide#Example_layouts]]:
 +
 
 +
even if  many users will understand remainder of the device as what is left after size of /dev/sdx1 and /dev/sdx3 are subtsructed from the size of the device, I think the order of the table might be confusing for some. Some people might set /dev/sdx2 to the size of the device minus size of /dev/sdx1, and then stumbled at where from 512 MiB, or larger, are to be found for /dev/sdx3. Either suggest the swap space as /dev/sdx2 and / as /dev/sdx3, or better explain the meaning of the remainder of the device for sdx2. [[User:Regid|Regid]] ([[User talk:Regid|talk]]) 14:05, 29 December 2018 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:Using /dev/sdx2 for swap is questionable, it doesn't emphasize that swap is optional nor is it consistent with other articles like [[dm-crypt/Encrypting an entire system]]. If you have some better explanation for "remainder of the device" feel free to propose it. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 08:55, 30 December 2018 (UTC)
 +
:: I was trying to say that a user that patitions his HD by following the table might do the following: look at first row in the table, and creates the EFI partition. Than continue with the 2nd row. So he creates a partition at the remainder of his HD. Now he comes to the 3rd row: where will he get 512 MiB, or larger? As for [[dm-crypt/Encrypting an entire system]], I might be wrong thinking that each partition is considered a separate device, so it doesn't matter if the swap space is before, or after, the / partition. [[User:Regid|Regid]] ([[User talk:Regid|talk]]) 12:41, 30 December 2018 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
::: Perhaps call it "Principal part of the device" instead. NB the term "remainder of the device" is often used for a separate {{ic|/home}} in other articles. --[[User:Indigo|Indigo]] ([[User talk:Indigo|talk]]) 21:33, 3 February 2019 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:: Partioning disks mentions fdisk but better is gdisk /dev/sdX (x representing your drive. mine is sda) then running commands x, z, y, y after that run cgdisk [[User:Drillsar|Drillsar]] ([[User talk:Drillsar|talk]]) 01:04, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
== Confusing partition numbers ==
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 +
The partition numbers on this page are confusing. The table calls the root partition /dev/sdX2, while the text below calls it /dev/sdX1. It should be matched for consistency. [[User:Sabinscabin|Sabinscabin]] ([[User talk:Sabinscabin|talk]]) 20:29, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:Probably better to do it as [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Beginners%27_guide&oldid=446855#Identify_the_devices] -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 18:53, 1 May 2019 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
== HiDPI on the console ==
 +
 
 +
With an ever increasing number of [[HiDPI]] displays, including at the begging of the article a section about adjusting the scaling factor or changing the font can be helpful, see [[HiDPI#Linux_console]]. [[User:Goetzc|Goetzc]] ([[User talk:Goetzc|talk]]) 02:21, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:It could be added as an example for {{ic|setfont}} in [[Installation_guide#Set_the_keyboard_layout]]. The issue I have is that [[HiDPI#Linux_console]] mentions that {{ic|tty2-6}} may be unusable, while the Installation guide specifically instructs to change ttys as required in [[Installation_guide#Boot_the_live_environment]]. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 13:07, 7 September 2019 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
== First mention of /mnt in example partition layout ==
 +
 
 +
{{ic|/mnt}} is mentioned at mount point in [[Installation_guide#Partition_the_disks]], while {{ic|/mnt}} is made explicit two sections later in [[Installation_guide#Mount_the_file_systems]]. As I recall it, this was changed because some users blindly copy pasted commands and mounted /boot on the live system, instead of /mnt/boot. Some options:
  
[[special:diff/542917]] shouldn't that link go [[Table_of_contents]] or similar? --[[User:Ubone|Ubone]] ([[User talk:Ubone|talk]]) 13:20, 26 September 2018 (UTC)
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* Introduce another column describing the mount point on the installed system.
 +
* Actually explain /mnt early.
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* Revert the "mount point" to not include /mnt.
  
:Why would it? That link is supposed to specifically explain what ArchWiki ''is''. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 13:38, 26 September 2018 (UTC)
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-- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 13:03, 7 September 2019 (UTC)
  
::isn't the context of the sentence about the tools used in the article and their wiki pages? --[[User:Ubone|Ubone]] ([[User talk:Ubone|talk]]) 14:39, 26 September 2018 (UTC)
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:I don't understand what's the actual problem here... -- [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 09:36, 8 September 2019 (UTC)
  
== /etc/locale.conf needs to be created ==
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::From what I read on [[ArchWiki:IRC|#archlinux-wiki]], this comes from https://www.reddit.com/r/archlinux/comments/d0v0j3/is_it_just_me_or_is_the_prospect_of_installing/ where the user was confused by the lack of root mountpoint (i.e. {{ic|/mnt}} vs {{ic|/}}). A question could be raised, if we should concern ourselves with users who have strong opinions about the wiki content yet can't be bothered to propose improvements in the talk pages...
 +
::About Alad's proposed options: I disagree with the first option, I think it will just complicate things even further. I support the third option and maybe adjusting the column header like in [[Special:Diff/581800]].
 +
::I'd actually would like to go even further and change the commands run from outside chroot to be visually distinct, e.g.: {{bc|1=<span style="color: #ff0000;">root@archiso #</span> mount /dev/sd''X1'' /mnt}}
 +
::I think it would better solve the underlying issue.
 +
:: -- [[User:nl6720|nl6720]] ([[User talk:nl6720|talk]]) 15:26, 8 September 2019 (UTC)
  
The area needing a correction is [[Installation guide#Localization]].
+
:::I'm not overly fond of the longer column name. For the last proposed option, I may agree if this is formalized in [[Help:Style]], so that it is not specfic to the [[Installation guide]]. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 11:20, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
  
The instructions tell you to set variables in the /etc/locale.conf file, but the file doesn't exist unless the user creates it. If the user needs to '''create''' the file, it should be explicitly explained with that language just as it is explained for the hostname file in [[Installation guide#Network configuration]] area. "'''Create''' the hostname file:"
+
::::Adding it [[Help:Style]] was my intention, since other articles, too, will need to use that style for some commands. I'm thinking of creating a template for it: [[Special:Permalink/581945]]. -- [[User:nl6720|nl6720]] ([[User talk:nl6720|talk]]) 10:19, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
  
For '''Localization''', I propose we add the verbiage ''Create the locale.conf file: /etc/locale.conf''
+
:::::Sounds good to me, I'd just prefer the regular (non-bold) font for the prompt as above. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 21:54, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
[[User:Schlitzkrieg|Schlitzkrieg]] ([[User talk:Schlitzkrieg|talk]]) 18:52, 28 September 2018 (UTC)
 
  
== fstab ==
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::::::[[Special:Permalink/582327]]. Are there any other opinions about creating such a template? Or should I take this discussion to [[Help talk:Template]] per [[Help:Template#Creation]]?  -- [[User:nl6720|nl6720]] ([[User talk:nl6720|talk]]) 18:31, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
  
The section about generating the fstab with genfstab mentions -U and -L options but not the possibility to use GPT identifiers PARTUUID and PARTLABEL with the '-t' option. Those are described in [[Persistent block device naming]] and are a better choice for some users. genfstab itself doesn't explicitly list the GPT options either so IMHO it would be helpful to add this info here.
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:::::::# How are you going to call the template? This template would probably add to the [[Help:Template#Code formatting templates]] series, should it be named in a consistent fashion?
 +
:::::::# Should this template support custom prompts, and if so, should it be called "pc" (from "(custom) prompted" code)?
 +
:::::::# I don't like the red color too much, if bold is not an option maybe we can go green|purple|blue, something that recalls less a warning of some kind? Or can we just leave it with the default font color? Or a slightly fainter black?
 +
:::::::# I haven't looked well into it, but maybe we can instead add an optional argument to [[Template:bc]] and [[Template:hc]] that prefixes a custom (colored) prompt? I wouldn't see a problem with repeating "root@archiso #" in every instance, or we may derive the new template from those two at that point.
 +
:::::::# The template should probably be derived from [[Template:bc]] in any case, for simpler code, see [[Template:Sandbox2]].
 +
:::::::-- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 17:36, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
  
{{unsigned|15:12, 9 October 2018‎|Grmat}}
+
::::::::# Initially I was going to call it [[Template:Archiso]] since it would be [[Archiso]]-specific, but I'm starting to think that creating a more general-purpose template would be better. It could then be used in [[PostgreSQL]] and the {{ic|[postgres]$}} convention would get formalized in [[Help:Style]]. Now the issue is the {{ic|[user@peer-a]#}} in [[Template:hc]] used in [[WireGuard]]. I'd rather not create two new templates, but I'm having trouble getting [[Template:Sandbox]] to work :(
 +
::::::::# I like your "[[Template:pc]]" suggestion.
 +
::::::::# Be glad I didn't post my first draft that was ''slightly more'' colorful. From your offered colors, I'd choose purple.
 +
::::::::# I'd rather not mess with the established templates just for this change, so I'd prefer creating a new template.
 +
::::::::# I didn't even think about using [[Template:bc]]. Is it a good idea to do that? The new template might need to be updated if [[Template:bc]] is ever changed in an incompatible way.
 +
:::::::: -- [[User:nl6720|nl6720]] ([[User talk:nl6720|talk]]) 07:33, 17 September 2019 (UTC)
  
== Wording in example layout table and size of EFI partition ==
+
:::::::::Yeah, after viewing your attempts and looking into it myself, I think modifying bc/hc is out of discussion, it would add too much code/style for so little use.
 +
:::::::::Thinking about this again one day after, I feel I'm realizing that my concerns in general may descend from the fact that we're going to create a template to represent (block) code, even though we already have 2 which basically do the same thing, including allowing to include a prompt; the only addition of this "Archiso" or "pc" template would be the formatting around the prompt, so why not keep it simple (I know, "simplicity" is often subjective and controversial) and instead either make a [[Template:Archiso]] to be used like {{ic|<nowiki>{{bc|{{Archiso}} mount /dev/sdX1 /mnt}}</nowiki>}} or [[Template:ps]] (or [[Template:PS]]) to be used like {{ic|<nowiki>{{hc|{{ps|root@archiso #}} mount /dev/sdX1 /mnt}}</nowiki>}}? They also work with [[Template:hc]] and space-prefixed code blocks!
 +
:::::::::Putting the choice of color aside, if the above idea of a standalone prompt template isn't welcome, I think my second choice would be to make two [[Template:pbc]] and [[Template:phc]] that work like {{ic|<nowiki>{{pbc|$|ls}}</nowiki>}} and {{ic|<nowiki>{{phc|$|ls|...}}</nowiki>}}, with the style rule to use them only in case of complex prompts. I'd still derive them from bc/hc to inherit any changes that we'd decide to make to them, and avoid repeating that ugly &lt;pre> hack even more.
 +
:::::::::Otherwise I give up and accept the [[Template:Archiso]] that works like {{ic|<nowiki>{{Archiso|mount /dev/sdX1 /mnt}}</nowiki>}}, in the hope that one day we won't need an analogous "hc" version.
 +
:::::::::-- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 14:24, 17 September 2019 (UTC)
  
Regarding [[Installation_guide#Example_layouts]]:
+
::::::::::I can't say I really like the idea of {{ic|<nowiki>{{bc|{{Archiso}} mount /dev/sdX1 /mnt}}</nowiki>}} or {{ic|<nowiki>{{hc|{{ps|root@archiso #}} mount /dev/sdX1 /mnt}}</nowiki>}}. I'd prefer creating [[Template:pbc]] and [[Template:phc]].
# even if  many users will understand remainder of the device as what is left after size of /dev/sdx1 and /dev/sdx3 are subtsructed from the size of the device, I think the order of the table might be confusing for some. Some people might set /dev/sdx2 to the size of the device minus size of /dev/sdx1, and then stumbled at where from 512 MiB, or larger, are to be found for /dev/sdx3. Either suggest the swap space as /dev/sdx2 and / as /dev/sdx3, or better explain the meaning of the remainder of the device for sdx2.
+
::::::::::I still don't get what's wrong with [[Template:Sandbox]]. It should just work:
# As for the size of sdx1 for UEFI+GPT, I think 260-550 MiB are better than 260-512 MiB, as per [[EFI system partition#Create the partition]], which is referenced by [[partition#/boot]].
 
[[User:Regid|Regid]] ([[User talk:Regid|talk]]) 14:05, 29 December 2018 (UTC)
 
  
:I would like to propose an ESP size of 5 MiB (requires fat12 filesystem format), which works fine on any well-designed implementation of the UEFI spec, like my laptop, and elegantly covers the case where the EFI contains only a capable bootloader, which loads the kernel from another (ext4/btrfs/whatever) partition.  
+
<pre<noinclude></noinclude> {{#if: code|style="margin-bottom: 0; border-bottom:none; padding-bottom:0.8em;"}}>prompt # command</pre<noinclude></noinclude>><noinclude><!-- The &lt;noinclude>&lt;/noinclude> hack is needed to allow wiki markup inside the pre tags; reference: http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/wiki/mediawiki/118688#118688 -->
 +
{{#if: code|<pre<noinclude></noinclude> style="margin-top: 0; border-top-style:dashed; padding-top: 0.8em;">code</pre<noinclude></noinclude>>}}
  
:Anyway the page you linked makes it quite clear that 512 MiB is fine for any UEFI implementation, and "avoiding confusion" seems to be rather inferior compared to just instructing people to use {{ic|mkfs.fat -F 32}}. -- [[User:Eschwartz|Eschwartz]] ([[User talk:Eschwartz|talk]]) 23:44, 29 December 2018 (UTC)
+
:::::::::: -- [[User:nl6720|nl6720]] ([[User talk:nl6720|talk]]) 04:43, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
  
::I'm not sure I understand your comment. Do you propose to add an mkfs.fat line to [[Installation guide#Format the partitions]] for a /boot partition? -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 08:55, 30 December 2018 (UTC)
+
:::::::::::FWIW (and a bit of fun) I've fixed [[Template:Sandbox]], although I'm not sure if we really need that level of automation ^^ I stick to my position above, is there a third (or more) opinion? -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 15:48, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
  
:::I'm saying we already do do so, in [[EFI system partition#Format the partition]] where we go into lots of detail about the best way to set up an ESP, why fat32 is not necessary but nevertheless is recommended, and the optimal size for one. None of this elaboration is suitable for the [[Installation guide]], which does not even mention which filesystem type any of the example layouts uses. But we do explicitly state it "must" be fat32 in [[File systems#Create a file system]] which we link to immediately after the example layouts. -- [[User:Eschwartz|Eschwartz]] ([[User talk:Eschwartz|talk]]) 16:35, 30 December 2018 (UTC)
+
:::::::::I think you like the [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=User_talk:Nl6720&diff=447834&oldid=447833 #800080] shade of purple, right? ;-) [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 11:39, 21 September 2019 (UTC)
  
::::Yes, but just because of that content Regid has a point that the 260-512 example is confusing. I'd say, match it now by switching to a 550MiB example as per [[#Example layouts section draft]] below, which in the end only carries the recommendation from the subject articles into the installation guide. --[[User:Indigo|Indigo]] ([[User talk:Indigo|talk]]) 21:33, 3 February 2019 (UTC)
+
::::::::::Yes, I do like that one :D but I think it would be too bright for this template. -- [[User:nl6720|nl6720]] ([[User talk:nl6720|talk]]) 11:52, 21 September 2019 (UTC)
  
:::::But the primary recommendation there ''is'' to use 512, and as I said I think it makes more sense to stick with what we already say, and recommend the use of {{ic|mkfs.fat -F 32}}. I'm unclear why the article seems to be recommending the use of specific sizes merely to trick the mkfs.vfat command into selecting the right vfat version. -- [[User:Eschwartz|Eschwartz]] ([[User talk:Eschwartz|talk]]) 21:41, 3 February 2019 (UTC)
+
== Changes for the base package ==
  
::::::You paraphrased your reply to the last question very much; I did not get that you recommend that. In the linked subject articles I found mentions along the lines of "..at least 512 MiB. 550 MiB is recommended..". Hence, I restate my main point: this article should subsume recommendations from the other articles (and this is the wrong place to start discussing them), not make different ones. --[[User:Indigo|Indigo]] ([[User talk:Indigo|talk]]) 22:39, 3 February 2019 (UTC)
+
=== Installations without base ===
  
:Using /dev/sdx2 for swap is questionable, it doesn't emphasize that swap is optional nor is it consistent with other articles like [[dm-crypt/Encrypting an entire system]]. If you have some better explanation for "remainder of the device" feel free to propose it. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 08:55, 30 December 2018 (UTC)
+
The base group was replaced with the base package: [https://www.archlinux.org/news/base-group-replaced-by-mandatory-base-package-manual-intervention-required/] This change was reflected in [[Installation_guide#Install_the_base_packages]] with [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Installation_guide&diff=584504&oldid=582205]  
:: I was trying to say that a user that patitions his HD by following the table might do the following: look at first row in the table, and creates the EFI partition. Than continue with the 2nd row. So he creates a partition at the remainder of his HD. Now he comes to the 3rd row: where will he get 512 MiB, or larger? As for [[dm-crypt/Encrypting an entire system]], I might be wrong thinking that each partition is considered a separate device, so it doesn't matter if the swap space is before, or after, the / partition. [[User:Regid|Regid]] ([[User talk:Regid|talk]]) 12:41, 30 December 2018 (UTC)
 
  
::: Perhaps call it "Principal part of the device" instead. NB the term "remainder of the device" is often used for a separate {{ic|/home}} in other articles. --[[User:Indigo|Indigo]] ([[User talk:Indigo|talk]]) 21:33, 3 February 2019 (UTC)
+
With [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Installation_guide&diff=584505&oldid=584504], I removed the sentence "We only officially support installations that have the {{Pkg|base}} package installed." because it opens a new rabbit-hole when something is "officially supported" in the installation guide, is not. With this sentence included, pretty much anything (including "installations" that are not, or only partially, followed from the [[Installation guide]]) may be supported merely from having the {{Pkg|base}} package installed.
  
== systemctl ==
+
On the other hand, some notion that removing the {{Pkg|base}} package results in an installation that is "not Arch" makes sense, but we should discuss on the best approach on doing this. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 10:22, 6 October 2019 (UTC)
:Moved from [[#Read this first before adding new suggestions]]. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 04:10, 2 January 2019 (UTC)
 
I think this list of systemctl commands, perhaps the whole paragraph, should be stated in the installation guide itself, not only here. Also, the fact the some systemctl commands do work, according to [https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/798#issuecomment-126568596 github reference above], also worth explicit mention. Otherwise, users that do read pages of the wiki might not understand when to expect systemctl control commands, that are spread all over the wiki, to actually work within the chroot environment. [[User:Regid|Regid]] ([[User talk:Regid|talk]]) 21:43, 31 December 2018 (UTC)
 
  
== Example layouts section ==
+
=== <s>pacstrap suggested packages</s> ===
  
There are several things I don't like in the current [[Installation guide#Example layouts]] section.
+
linux-firmware has been made optional earlier this week in the linux kernel, this together with the base package changes means that linux-firmware is not installed with the currently recommended pacstrap command. I would argue that most people expect linux-firmware (or need it, even).
  
* <s>BIOS/GPT & BIOS/MBR is merged in one example. This is bound to lead to unnecessary confusion, since, for example, there is no BIOS boot partition for MBR. I suggest omitting BIOS/GPT since not all firmware support it (due to being unsupported by Windows). Then the GRUB-specific partition doesn't need to be listed.</s>
+
I propose adding {{Pkg|linux-firmware}} to the pacstrap command, with a note that this is only required on baremetal systems (i think?)
* <s>Column title "Partition type (GUID)". If the GUIDs (and IDs for MBR) are omitted for ''simplicity'', then the column should not mention them.</s>
+
-- [[User:Coderobe|Coderobe]] ([[User talk:Coderobe|talk]]) 10:46, 6 October 2019 (UTC)
* <s>[https://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Specifications/DiscoverablePartitionsSpec/ The Discoverable Partitions Specification] is not used on GPT.</s>
 
* The suggested size for {{ic|/}}, "Remainder of the device", could be replaced with the required minimum. [[Partitioning]] suggests 23-32 GiB, so how about 32 GiB.
 
* The suggested size of [[ESP]] doesn't match the recommended size from [[EFI system partition#Create the partition]].
 
* [[gdisk]] is not mentioned or linked (it doesn't share an wiki article with [[fdisk]] anymore) even once in the [[Installation guide]]. It could be added to the note below the tables.
 
* <s>Without [[Template:ic]] around the mount points and partitions, they look awful.</s>
 
  
I presume that, unlike [[Partitioning#Example layouts]], the examples should be as ''simple'' as possible, so, I propose the following examples.
+
:Adding {{Pkg|linux-firmware}} to the pacstrap command would mark it as explicitly installed, while it is ''just'' an optional dependency of the kernel packages. -- [[User:nl6720|nl6720]] ([[User talk:nl6720|talk]]) 13:17, 6 October 2019 (UTC)
  
-- [[User:nl6720|nl6720]] ([[User talk:nl6720|talk]]) 07:37, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
+
::If the purpose of installing {{Pkg|linux-firmware}} is clearly explained in the guide, what's the issue in having it explicitly installed? As I see it, if it's a bare metal installation, then it ''is'' something that should be considered as explicitly installed. -- [[User:CodingKoopa|CodingKoopa]] ([[User talk:CodingKoopa|talk]]) 16:15, 6 October 2019 (UTC)
  
: I guess {{ic|/dev/sd''X''2}} being root in both examples is the reason for keeping the current "BIOS with MBR or GPT" example. I don't really have a solution for this. The wiki's usage of {{ic|/dev/sdXY}} will need to be addressed sooner or later due to the naming scheme of NVME disks.
+
::Previously, all packages from the {{Grp|base}} group were explicitly installed... -- [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 17:43, 6 October 2019 (UTC)
: Re [[Special:Diff/565508]]: There's no maximum for the ESP, so how about "At least 256 MiB". -- [[User:nl6720|nl6720]] ([[User talk:nl6720|talk]]) 09:00, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
 
  
:: I agree with the simpler examples. To make the numbering work out I propose to simplify the example commands in [[Installation guide#Format the partitions]], it's hard to cater to users who have never mounted a drive or created a directory anyway.
+
:::Yes that's true, but the {{Pkg|base}} and {{Pkg|linux}} changes now allow for proper dependency tracking, unfortunately there's no way to tell {{ic|pacstrap}} that a package should be installed as a dependency. Anyway, forget about this complaint of mine, there are more pressing issues. -- [[User:nl6720|nl6720]] ([[User talk:nl6720|talk]]) 05:36, 7 October 2019 (UTC)
:: Regarding the partition sizes, note that the column says "suggested size" instead of "maximum" or "minimum" size. (256 MiB is not the strict minimum either, especially for {{ic|/efi}} as mount point.) As such the existing 256-512 MiB suggestion for ESP looks reasonable to me. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 18:54, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
 
  
::: [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Installation_guide&diff=565589&oldid=565575] -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 19:06, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
+
::::New Arch user here. I don't really know what a "baremetal system" is (1), but after rebooting, I ended with a system that seemed to be "frozen" in the middle of the boot process. Actually it was not, just without working graphical drivers. I've got some experience in Linux and, after checking journald logs from within a chroot and remembering I watched a similar problem in a Debian Testing installation some months ago, I knew it was due to missing linux-firmware. So, I guess this is an issue another users are going to suffer and probably the less experienced won't be able to solve it.
 +
::::''(1) This is an old but reliable machine that I want to use as a backup system: a Core2 Duo with an AMD Caicos as graphics card.''
 +
:::: {{unsigned|2019-10-09|Angrytomato}}
  
::: My issue with "256–512 MiB" is that the [[EFI system partition#Create the partition]] recommendation "550 MiB" is outside that range. -- [[User:nl6720|nl6720]] ([[User talk:nl6720|talk]]) 19:39, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
+
:::::Thanks for the feedback, I think we need to include {{Pkg|linux-firmware}} next to the kernel package. I've made a quick [[#Draft: Install essential packages|draft]] which also more clearly lists other packages that may be necessary. -- [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 21:33, 9 October 2019 (UTC)
  
:::: This was (is?) discussed in [[#Wording_in_example_layout_table_and_size_of_EFI_partition]] -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 19:43, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
+
:{{Pkg|linux-firmware}} can also useful in virtual machines when passing through a piece of hardware that requires it (GPUs being the most common case). -- [[User:nl6720|nl6720]] ([[User talk:nl6720|talk]]) 04:20, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
  
::::: Hmm, I see. FAT32 & 512+ MiB are used due to to firmware bugs, but the example suggests a range that includes a size smaller than 512 MiB so it's ineffective for that purpose. The main issue for me is that readers will see "''conflicting information''" with 256–512 MiB in the [[Installation guide]] and 550 MiB in other articles (just in case, I'm not suggesting to change the other articles). No one is going to think that the "Suggested size" is just a suggestion and not a hard limit. -- [[User:nl6720|nl6720]] ([[User talk:nl6720|talk]]) 20:10, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
+
Oh, addendum: {{Pkg|base}} does *not* contain a text editor. This should probably be made clear in a similar manner as linux-firmware. New users will find themselves without a regular text editor when booting into the installed system otherwise.  
 +
-- [[User:Coderobe|Coderobe]] ([[User talk:Coderobe|talk]]) 11:54, 6 October 2019 (UTC)
  
=== Example layouts section draft ===
+
:The {{Pkg|base}} package also doesn't depend on any file system userspace utilities. The installed system would need them for [[fsck]]. -- [[User:nl6720|nl6720]] ([[User talk:nl6720|talk]]) 13:15, 6 October 2019 (UTC)
  
{| class="wikitable"
+
:I suggest also letting users know about manual pages and recommend adding: man-db man-pages texinfo.[[User:Tinywrkb|Tinywrkb]] ([[User talk:Tinywrkb|talk]]) 15:29, 6 October 2019 (UTC)
|+ BIOS/MBR
 
|-
 
! Mount point
 
! Partition
 
! [[Wikipedia:Partition type|Partition type]]
 
! Suggested size
 
|-
 
| {{ic|/mnt}}
 
| {{ic|/dev/sd''X''1}}
 
| Linux
 
| At least 32 GiB
 
|-
 
| {{ic|[SWAP]}}
 
| {{ic|/dev/sd''X''2}}
 
| Linux swap
 
| More than 512 MiB
 
|-
 
|}
 
  
{| class="wikitable"
+
All packages that are in {{Grp|base}} (group), but not in {{Pkg|base}} (package):
|+ UEFI/GPT
 
|-
 
! Mount point
 
! Partition
 
! [[Wikipedia:GUID_Partition_Table#Partition_type_GUIDs|Partition type]]
 
! Suggested size
 
|-
 
| {{ic|/boot}} or {{ic|/mnt/efi}}
 
| {{ic|/dev/sd''X''1}}
 
| [[EFI system partition]]
 
| 550 MiB
 
|-
 
| {{ic|/mnt}}
 
| {{ic|/dev/sd''X''2}}
 
| Linux x86-64 root (/)  
 
| At least 32 GiB
 
|-
 
| {{ic|[SWAP]}}
 
| {{ic|/dev/sd''X''3}}
 
| Linux swap
 
| More than 512 MiB
 
|-
 
|}
 
  
{{Note|
+
{{hc|$ comm -23 <(pacman -Sgq base {{!}} sort) <(expac -S "%D" base {{!}} tr -s " " "\n" {{!}} sort)|
* Use [[fdisk]] or [[parted]], or [[gdisk]] (GPT only) to modify partition tables. For example {{ic|fdisk /dev/sd''X''}}.
+
cryptsetup -- indirect dependency of base
* [[Swap]] space can be set on a [[swap file]] for file systems supporting it.
+
device-mapper -- indirect dependency of base
 +
dhcpcd
 +
diffutils
 +
e2fsprogs -- indirect dependency of base
 +
inetutils
 +
jfsutils
 +
less -- indirect dependency of base
 +
linux
 +
linux-firmware
 +
logrotate
 +
lvm2
 +
man-db
 +
man-pages
 +
mdadm
 +
nano
 +
netctl
 +
perl
 +
reiserfsprogs
 +
s-nail
 +
sysfsutils
 +
texinfo
 +
usbutils
 +
vi
 +
which
 +
xfsprogs
 
}}
 
}}
  
See [[Partitioning#Example layouts]] for more detailed and advanced examples.
+
Note {{Pkg|man-pages}}.
 +
 
 +
-- [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 17:11, 6 October 2019 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:e2fsprogs is not in base, but it gets installed as a dependency. systemd -> audit -> krb5 -> e2fsprogs. [[User:Grazzolini|Grazzolini]] ([[User talk:Grazzolini|talk]]) 13:15, 7 October 2019 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:So what do we do? It feels like we're making policy decisions, which shouldn't really be happening. -- [[User:nl6720|nl6720]] ([[User talk:nl6720|talk]]) 06:00, 7 October 2019 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
::We might need an additional section like "Install additional packages", either in [[Installation guide#Installation]] or [[Installation guide#Configure the system]] or somewhere in [[General recommendations]]. -- [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 11:21, 7 October 2019 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:::[[General recommendations]] would be too late for networking packages, but {{Pkg|man-db}}, {{Pkg|man-pages}}, {{Pkg|texinfo}}, {{Pkg|diffutils}} and {{Pkg|less}} could be mentioned there.
 +
:::Networking package installation would belong nicely in [[Installation guide#Network configuration]] and there already is a precedent for placing package installation in [[Installation guide#Configure the system]] with [[Installation guide#Boot loader]] (although that section is regularly criticized).
 +
:::File system userspace utilities: [[Installation guide#Fstab]] is before chroot, so not there. Or maybe split [[Installation guide#Fstab]] into two parts (in archiso and in chroot), but that would needlessly complicate things. Maybe hint about it in [[Installation guide#Format the partitions]] and place the installation instructions in [[Installation guide#Installation]]?
 +
:::Now, [[text editor]]s ... After [[Installation guide#Chroot]] a text editor is needed otherwise users have to create and modify files with {{ic|echo}} and {{ic|sed}} which, although doable, is ridiculous. Maybe place it in [[Installation guide#Installation]]? While I feel that recommending any specific text editor would just lead to bikeshedding or perpetual complaints, but IMHO not recommending one would again be needless complication.
 +
::: -- [[User:nl6720|nl6720]] ([[User talk:nl6720|talk]]) 12:23, 7 October 2019 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:::: Would be nice to get a draft in this time, before merging the changes to the article (mea culpa on allowing editing of the installation guide without prior consultation.) -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 15:17, 7 October 2019 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:::::I don't think any of my changes besides [[Special:Diff/584615]] were that controversial. There's no simple way create a draft unless there's a consensus on what to put where. Otherwise you'll just get a draft for the whole page, which I consider to be a waste of time. -- [[User:nl6720|nl6720]] ([[User talk:nl6720|talk]]) 15:33, 7 October 2019 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
::::::I meant the things you mentioned in your last reply (text editors and all that stuff). Doesn't have to the whole page, just specific sections. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 08:02, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:::::::I've made a quick [[#Draft: Install essential packages|draft]], if you think it's an improvement we can merge it and then discuss if individual recommendations should be moved elsewhere. -- [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 21:33, 9 October 2019 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
::::::::I'd like to see the note changed to a tip, but otherwise I support your draft. Another thing to consider, in [[Special:Diff/584590]] I changed "specific wireless firmware" (i.e. [[Broadcom wireless]]) to "firmware files for devices". Maybe [[#Draft: Install essential packages]] should mention "specific wireless firmware". -- [[User:nl6720|nl6720]] ([[User talk:nl6720|talk]]) 04:20, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:::::::::I've changed it, feel free to edit it further. -- [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 06:46, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
::::::::::Current version looks OK to me. -- [[User:nl6720|nl6720]] ([[User talk:nl6720|talk]]) 08:04, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
=== <s>Draft: Install essential packages</s> ===
 +
 
 +
Use the [https://projects.archlinux.org/arch-install-scripts.git/tree/pacstrap.in pacstrap] script to install the {{Pkg|base}} package, Linux [[kernel]] and firmware for common hardware:
 +
 
 +
# pacstrap /mnt base linux linux-firmware
 +
 
 +
{{Tip|You can substitute {{Pkg|linux}} for a [[kernel]] package of your choice. You can omit the installation of the kernel or the firmware package if you know what you are doing.}}
 +
 
 +
The {{Pkg|base}} package does not include all tools from the live installation, so installing other packages may be necessary for a fully functional base system. In particular, consider installing:
 +
 
 +
* userspace utilities for the management of [[file systems]] that will be used on the system,
 +
* utilities for accessing [[RAID]] or [[LVM]] partitions,
 +
* specific firmware for other devices not included in {{Pkg|linux-firmware}},
 +
* software necessary for [[networking]],
 +
* a [[text editor]],
 +
* packages for accessing documentation in [[man]] and [[info]] pages: {{Pkg|man-db}}, {{Pkg|man-pages}} and {{Pkg|texinfo}}.
 +
 
 +
To [[install]] other packages or package groups, append the names to the ''pacstrap'' command above (space separated) or use [[pacman]] after the [[#Chroot|chroot]] step. For comparison, packages available in the live system can be found in [https://projects.archlinux.org/archiso.git/tree/configs/releng/packages.x86_64 packages.x86_64].
 +
 
 +
:A bit long, but LGTM -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 20:43, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
::OK, merged. -- [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 13:32, 12 October 2019 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
== <s>Adding a brief installation summary</s> ==
 +
 
 +
Most new people coming to the installation page do not have a clear view of the tasks required to have a complete linux/arch installation. And they seem to get lost in the dense pages. The contents links help, but they are a bit too technical.
 +
 
 +
I will post further suggestions for this, but for the now a brief summary at the top of the guide would probably help lots of people
 +
 
 +
Something like:
 +
 
 +
----
 +
A typical linux installation would include the following parts (generalized and in non-absolute order)
 +
# Installation medium preparation
 +
# Disk partitioning
 +
# Bootstrapping of the OS
 +
# Locale setup
 +
# Network setup
 +
# Bootloader setup
 +
# Users/Groups setup
 +
# Driver setup
 +
# Desktop setup
 +
 
 +
This guide will help you through these steps, the tools and options you have to complete each of them.
 +
 
 +
Please note that your choices can affect how next parts have to be executed. So please go through the entire guide, including linked pages, before you start.
 +
 
 +
It is also very helpful if you document your actions. Both for future reference and so that people can help you if you have issues.
 +
 
 +
And please avoid blindly following third party guides without consulting the wiki.
 +
----
 +
 
 +
[[User:Dimkasta|Dimkasta]] ([[User talk:Dimkasta|talk]]) 17:03, 28 October 2019 (UTC)
  
=== <s>Table CSS</s> ===
+
:The installation guide summary is all the summary you'll need. Desktop and other things is covered by post installation. Remember, the objective of the installation guide is to cover the absolute minimum to get (the now mandatory) base installed, so you can expand from that. [[User:Grazzolini|Grazzolini]] ([[User talk:Grazzolini|talk]]) 17:31, 28 October 2019 (UTC)
  
<code>style="width: 70%;"</code> [[Special:Diff/560603|introduced by Alad]] does not only look weird at 1080p but also unnecessarily squishes the table at smaller screen sizes. --[[User:Larivact|Larivact]] ([[User talk:Larivact|talk]]) 15:47, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
+
:You can get a very similar summary by just looking at the current Table of Contents. -- [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 17:34, 28 October 2019 (UTC)
  
: [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Installation_guide&diff=565575&oldid=565510] -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 18:55, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
+
::Agreed, closing. -- [[User:Alad|Alad]] ([[User talk:Alad|talk]]) 14:23, 13 November 2019 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 14:24, 13 November 2019

Read this first before adding new suggestions

  • systemd tools such as hostnamectl, timedatectl and localectl do not work in the installation chroot environment, so please do not propose to use them in the guide unless you can prove that they have been made to work also in that case. See [1], [2], [3] and [4] for some past discussions about this issue.
  • localectl list-keymaps does not work due to bug FS#46725. For the chosen replacement command, see [5].
  • localhost must be set explicitely in /etc/hosts, as it is otherwise resolved over the network. See FS#56684.

-- The ArchWiki Administrators 22:17, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

Link to the German version

Instead of de:Arch Install Scripts you could choose de:Anleitung für Einsteiger it means "Beginner's Guid" and is a very detailed artikel for very new arch users and the future experts.

Thank you, done. -- Kynikos (talk) 16:31, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
This was already proposed last year and rejected: [6]. I don't see what has changed since then. If someone adds me as admin to the german wiki or changes the protection settings, I can update de:Arch Install Scripts as required. -- Alad (talk) 18:13, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
I see, I didn't remember that discussion so I've reverted the change, hopefully you'll make it to update the translation, let's leave this open until the problem is solved, otherwise this kind of suggestion will keep appearing recurrently. -- Kynikos (talk) 17:53, 7 February 2018 (UTC)

Network configuration

dhcpcd for installed environment

How about we add a sentence to Installation_guide#Network_configuration describing how to restore use of dhcpcd as done on the installation medium? That way if the connection already worked on installation people only need a brief look at dhcpcd. -- Alad (talk) 15:48, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

I think that would just hide the possibility of choice from users. Maybe just say that dhcpcd is not enabled on the installed system without recommending anything. -- Lahwaacz (talk) 17:34, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

once chrooted, one has to configure again

One chrooted, configuration file edited in the previous steps, will have to be redone in the chrooted environment (/etc/systemd/network/ files). This is the same for ntp configuration (/etc/systemd/timesyncd.conf).

This should be worth noting.

—This unsigned comment is by Mrechte (talk) 12:27, 14 May 2019‎. Please sign your posts with ~~~~!

The guide does not say to edit anything under /etc/systemd/ in the first place, so there is nothing to be redone. Furthermore, Installation guide#Network configuration says to "Complete the network configuration for the newly installed environment." -- Lahwaacz (talk) 17:27, 17 May 2019 (UTC)

Why should a static IP be preferred over 127.0.1.1 in /etc/hosts?

"If the system has a permanent IP address, it should be used instead of 127.0.1.1."

I think the ArchWiki should not just say do X but also why. Alad as you added this, perhaps you can explain?--Larivact (talk) 15:14, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

In Network_configuration#Local hostname resolution: "For a system with a permanent IP address, that permanent IP address should be used instead of 127.0.1.1." -- Lahwaacz (talk) 06:48, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
First appearance in our wiki, cited source, also discussion. -- Kynikos (talk) 10:26, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Network Configuration -- WiFi discussion

I'm starting a new thread seeing as the last one took a different direction and never really got resolved.


As it stands, the current instructions for the installation guide make it challenging for users who need to connect to the internet via a Wireless connection rather than wired. The Installation_guide#Connect_to_the_Internet section essentially assumes the users are using a wired connection, and to test it with a ping. Otherwise, they are directed to the Network_configuration page. Unfortunately, that page does not provide clear instructions for new users (or even those who just want to do a quick connection) to establish a connection via wireless. Equally so, should users find their way to the Wireless_network_configuration page, there is some digging to do there in order to find instructions to setup a connection. These are currently using the iw command, which may prove to be challenging to some. I see a few different possible solutions to improve the user experience:

  • Add explicit instructions to the installation guide
    • This is not ideal, as it adds another place to maintain likely duplicate information
  • Add a reference to the Wireless_network_configuration page
    • This is better, though the page would likely need a new section, or some tweaking to allow users to more easily find the information they need to get setup
  • Add new/better instructions to the Network_configuration page
    • This may also prove to be tricky, seeing as that page is already fairly monolithic, and focuses mostly on wired connections

One other consideration (of which I also don't see any progress) is the discussions revolving around moving and breaking down the Network Configuration guides, to separate Wired and Wireless content. With this move I could see such instructions being provided there. In any case, the guide should provide instructions that are:

  • Easy to follow, particularly for new users
  • Puts no emphasis on persisting configurations, as this is not applicable during the install phase
  • Offers options (choice is King)

--CubeTheThird (talk) 23:47, 26 August 2018 (UTC)

The Wireless network configuration link was removed because it cannot be used independently of Network configuration. I propose the following:
  1. Implement Talk:Network configuration#Moving Ethernet-specific sections to Wired subpage. Network configuration currently isn't straightforward. The actual setup instructions are hidden in the Network management section and it's confusing that wireless has a subpage but wired and medium-agnostic configuration are mixed together. See my demo.
  2. Have the Connect to the Internet section only link Network configuration and move the dhcpcd udev rule note there.
  3. Move Wireless network configuration to Network configuration/Wireless and move its iw section to a dedicated article because since recently we also have iwd.
The result should be more user-friendly without duplicating content.
--Larivact (talk) 07:13, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
As for your demo, note that in Talk:Network_configuration#Ongoing_rewrite, Alad said: "ping is one of the very first commands a new user has to run on installation to verify the availability of an internet connection". So unless you intend to direct users from the installation guide directly to the Network configuration#Troubleshooting section, there is still some more thinking to be done... -- Lahwaacz (talk) 07:21, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
Well then let's keep Connect to the Internet and revise it:

The installation image has a udev rule that enables the dhcpcd service for Ethernet network interfaces on boot. If you use Ethernet, verify the connection with ping:

# ping archlinux.org

If the ping fails see Network configuration#Troubleshooting. If you want to use Wi-Fi or a static IP address, stop the dhcpcd service with systemctl stop dhcpcd@interface where the interface name can be tab-completed and proceed with Network configuration.

--Larivact (talk) 08:41, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
That looks good to me. -- Lahwaacz (talk) 14:57, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

Wording in example layout table and size of EFI partition

Wording in example layout table

Regarding Installation_guide#Example_layouts:

even if many users will understand remainder of the device as what is left after size of /dev/sdx1 and /dev/sdx3 are subtsructed from the size of the device, I think the order of the table might be confusing for some. Some people might set /dev/sdx2 to the size of the device minus size of /dev/sdx1, and then stumbled at where from 512 MiB, or larger, are to be found for /dev/sdx3. Either suggest the swap space as /dev/sdx2 and / as /dev/sdx3, or better explain the meaning of the remainder of the device for sdx2. Regid (talk) 14:05, 29 December 2018 (UTC)

Using /dev/sdx2 for swap is questionable, it doesn't emphasize that swap is optional nor is it consistent with other articles like dm-crypt/Encrypting an entire system. If you have some better explanation for "remainder of the device" feel free to propose it. -- Alad (talk) 08:55, 30 December 2018 (UTC)
I was trying to say that a user that patitions his HD by following the table might do the following: look at first row in the table, and creates the EFI partition. Than continue with the 2nd row. So he creates a partition at the remainder of his HD. Now he comes to the 3rd row: where will he get 512 MiB, or larger? As for dm-crypt/Encrypting an entire system, I might be wrong thinking that each partition is considered a separate device, so it doesn't matter if the swap space is before, or after, the / partition. Regid (talk) 12:41, 30 December 2018 (UTC)
Perhaps call it "Principal part of the device" instead. NB the term "remainder of the device" is often used for a separate /home in other articles. --Indigo (talk) 21:33, 3 February 2019 (UTC)
Partioning disks mentions fdisk but better is gdisk /dev/sdX (x representing your drive. mine is sda) then running commands x, z, y, y after that run cgdisk Drillsar (talk) 01:04, 16 May 2019 (UTC)

Confusing partition numbers

The partition numbers on this page are confusing. The table calls the root partition /dev/sdX2, while the text below calls it /dev/sdX1. It should be matched for consistency. Sabinscabin (talk) 20:29, 13 April 2019 (UTC)

Probably better to do it as [7] -- Alad (talk) 18:53, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

HiDPI on the console

With an ever increasing number of HiDPI displays, including at the begging of the article a section about adjusting the scaling factor or changing the font can be helpful, see HiDPI#Linux_console. Goetzc (talk) 02:21, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

It could be added as an example for setfont in Installation_guide#Set_the_keyboard_layout. The issue I have is that HiDPI#Linux_console mentions that tty2-6 may be unusable, while the Installation guide specifically instructs to change ttys as required in Installation_guide#Boot_the_live_environment. -- Alad (talk) 13:07, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

First mention of /mnt in example partition layout

/mnt is mentioned at mount point in Installation_guide#Partition_the_disks, while /mnt is made explicit two sections later in Installation_guide#Mount_the_file_systems. As I recall it, this was changed because some users blindly copy pasted commands and mounted /boot on the live system, instead of /mnt/boot. Some options:

  • Introduce another column describing the mount point on the installed system.
  • Actually explain /mnt early.
  • Revert the "mount point" to not include /mnt.

-- Alad (talk) 13:03, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

I don't understand what's the actual problem here... -- Lahwaacz (talk) 09:36, 8 September 2019 (UTC)
From what I read on #archlinux-wiki, this comes from https://www.reddit.com/r/archlinux/comments/d0v0j3/is_it_just_me_or_is_the_prospect_of_installing/ where the user was confused by the lack of root mountpoint (i.e. /mnt vs /). A question could be raised, if we should concern ourselves with users who have strong opinions about the wiki content yet can't be bothered to propose improvements in the talk pages...
About Alad's proposed options: I disagree with the first option, I think it will just complicate things even further. I support the third option and maybe adjusting the column header like in Special:Diff/581800.
I'd actually would like to go even further and change the commands run from outside chroot to be visually distinct, e.g.:
root@archiso # mount /dev/sdX1 /mnt
I think it would better solve the underlying issue.
-- nl6720 (talk) 15:26, 8 September 2019 (UTC)
I'm not overly fond of the longer column name. For the last proposed option, I may agree if this is formalized in Help:Style, so that it is not specfic to the Installation guide. -- Alad (talk) 11:20, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
Adding it Help:Style was my intention, since other articles, too, will need to use that style for some commands. I'm thinking of creating a template for it: Special:Permalink/581945. -- nl6720 (talk) 10:19, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
Sounds good to me, I'd just prefer the regular (non-bold) font for the prompt as above. -- Alad (talk) 21:54, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
Special:Permalink/582327. Are there any other opinions about creating such a template? Or should I take this discussion to Help talk:Template per Help:Template#Creation? -- nl6720 (talk) 18:31, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
  1. How are you going to call the template? This template would probably add to the Help:Template#Code formatting templates series, should it be named in a consistent fashion?
  2. Should this template support custom prompts, and if so, should it be called "pc" (from "(custom) prompted" code)?
  3. I don't like the red color too much, if bold is not an option maybe we can go green|purple|blue, something that recalls less a warning of some kind? Or can we just leave it with the default font color? Or a slightly fainter black?
  4. I haven't looked well into it, but maybe we can instead add an optional argument to Template:bc and Template:hc that prefixes a custom (colored) prompt? I wouldn't see a problem with repeating "root@archiso #" in every instance, or we may derive the new template from those two at that point.
  5. The template should probably be derived from Template:bc in any case, for simpler code, see Template:Sandbox2.
-- Kynikos (talk) 17:36, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
  1. Initially I was going to call it Template:Archiso since it would be Archiso-specific, but I'm starting to think that creating a more general-purpose template would be better. It could then be used in PostgreSQL and the [postgres]$ convention would get formalized in Help:Style. Now the issue is the [user@peer-a]# in Template:hc used in WireGuard. I'd rather not create two new templates, but I'm having trouble getting Template:Sandbox to work :(
  2. I like your "Template:pc" suggestion.
  3. Be glad I didn't post my first draft that was slightly more colorful. From your offered colors, I'd choose purple.
  4. I'd rather not mess with the established templates just for this change, so I'd prefer creating a new template.
  5. I didn't even think about using Template:bc. Is it a good idea to do that? The new template might need to be updated if Template:bc is ever changed in an incompatible way.
-- nl6720 (talk) 07:33, 17 September 2019 (UTC)
Yeah, after viewing your attempts and looking into it myself, I think modifying bc/hc is out of discussion, it would add too much code/style for so little use.
Thinking about this again one day after, I feel I'm realizing that my concerns in general may descend from the fact that we're going to create a template to represent (block) code, even though we already have 2 which basically do the same thing, including allowing to include a prompt; the only addition of this "Archiso" or "pc" template would be the formatting around the prompt, so why not keep it simple (I know, "simplicity" is often subjective and controversial) and instead either make a Template:Archiso to be used like {{bc|{{Archiso}} mount /dev/sdX1 /mnt}} or Template:ps (or Template:PS) to be used like {{hc|{{ps|root@archiso #}} mount /dev/sdX1 /mnt}}? They also work with Template:hc and space-prefixed code blocks!
Putting the choice of color aside, if the above idea of a standalone prompt template isn't welcome, I think my second choice would be to make two Template:pbc and Template:phc that work like {{pbc|$|ls}} and {{phc|$|ls|...}}, with the style rule to use them only in case of complex prompts. I'd still derive them from bc/hc to inherit any changes that we'd decide to make to them, and avoid repeating that ugly <pre> hack even more.
Otherwise I give up and accept the Template:Archiso that works like {{Archiso|mount /dev/sdX1 /mnt}}, in the hope that one day we won't need an analogous "hc" version.
-- Kynikos (talk) 14:24, 17 September 2019 (UTC)
I can't say I really like the idea of {{bc|{{Archiso}} mount /dev/sdX1 /mnt}} or {{hc|{{ps|root@archiso #}} mount /dev/sdX1 /mnt}}. I'd prefer creating Template:pbc and Template:phc.
I still don't get what's wrong with Template:Sandbox. It should just work:
prompt # command
code
-- nl6720 (talk) 04:43, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
FWIW (and a bit of fun) I've fixed Template:Sandbox, although I'm not sure if we really need that level of automation ^^ I stick to my position above, is there a third (or more) opinion? -- Kynikos (talk) 15:48, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
I think you like the #800080 shade of purple, right? ;-) Lahwaacz (talk) 11:39, 21 September 2019 (UTC)
Yes, I do like that one :D but I think it would be too bright for this template. -- nl6720 (talk) 11:52, 21 September 2019 (UTC)

Changes for the base package

Installations without base

The base group was replaced with the base package: [8] This change was reflected in Installation_guide#Install_the_base_packages with [9]

With [10], I removed the sentence "We only officially support installations that have the base package installed." because it opens a new rabbit-hole when something is "officially supported" in the installation guide, is not. With this sentence included, pretty much anything (including "installations" that are not, or only partially, followed from the Installation guide) may be supported merely from having the base package installed.

On the other hand, some notion that removing the base package results in an installation that is "not Arch" makes sense, but we should discuss on the best approach on doing this. -- Alad (talk) 10:22, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

pacstrap suggested packages

linux-firmware has been made optional earlier this week in the linux kernel, this together with the base package changes means that linux-firmware is not installed with the currently recommended pacstrap command. I would argue that most people expect linux-firmware (or need it, even).

I propose adding linux-firmware to the pacstrap command, with a note that this is only required on baremetal systems (i think?) -- Coderobe (talk) 10:46, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

Adding linux-firmware to the pacstrap command would mark it as explicitly installed, while it is just an optional dependency of the kernel packages. -- nl6720 (talk) 13:17, 6 October 2019 (UTC)
If the purpose of installing linux-firmware is clearly explained in the guide, what's the issue in having it explicitly installed? As I see it, if it's a bare metal installation, then it is something that should be considered as explicitly installed. -- CodingKoopa (talk) 16:15, 6 October 2019 (UTC)
Previously, all packages from the base group were explicitly installed... -- Lahwaacz (talk) 17:43, 6 October 2019 (UTC)
Yes that's true, but the base and linux changes now allow for proper dependency tracking, unfortunately there's no way to tell pacstrap that a package should be installed as a dependency. Anyway, forget about this complaint of mine, there are more pressing issues. -- nl6720 (talk) 05:36, 7 October 2019 (UTC)
New Arch user here. I don't really know what a "baremetal system" is (1), but after rebooting, I ended with a system that seemed to be "frozen" in the middle of the boot process. Actually it was not, just without working graphical drivers. I've got some experience in Linux and, after checking journald logs from within a chroot and remembering I watched a similar problem in a Debian Testing installation some months ago, I knew it was due to missing linux-firmware. So, I guess this is an issue another users are going to suffer and probably the less experienced won't be able to solve it.
(1) This is an old but reliable machine that I want to use as a backup system: a Core2 Duo with an AMD Caicos as graphics card.
—This unsigned comment is by Angrytomato (talk) 2019-10-09. Please sign your posts with ~~~~!
Thanks for the feedback, I think we need to include linux-firmware next to the kernel package. I've made a quick draft which also more clearly lists other packages that may be necessary. -- Lahwaacz (talk) 21:33, 9 October 2019 (UTC)
linux-firmware can also useful in virtual machines when passing through a piece of hardware that requires it (GPUs being the most common case). -- nl6720 (talk) 04:20, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

Oh, addendum: base does *not* contain a text editor. This should probably be made clear in a similar manner as linux-firmware. New users will find themselves without a regular text editor when booting into the installed system otherwise. -- Coderobe (talk) 11:54, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

The base package also doesn't depend on any file system userspace utilities. The installed system would need them for fsck. -- nl6720 (talk) 13:15, 6 October 2019 (UTC)
I suggest also letting users know about manual pages and recommend adding: man-db man-pages texinfo.Tinywrkb (talk) 15:29, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

All packages that are in base (group), but not in base (package):

$ comm -23 <(pacman -Sgq base | sort) <(expac -S "%D" base | tr -s " " "\n" | sort)
cryptsetup -- indirect dependency of base
device-mapper -- indirect dependency of base
dhcpcd
diffutils
e2fsprogs -- indirect dependency of base
inetutils
jfsutils
less -- indirect dependency of base
linux
linux-firmware
logrotate
lvm2
man-db
man-pages
mdadm
nano
netctl
perl
reiserfsprogs
s-nail
sysfsutils
texinfo
usbutils
vi
which
xfsprogs

Note man-pages.

-- Lahwaacz (talk) 17:11, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

e2fsprogs is not in base, but it gets installed as a dependency. systemd -> audit -> krb5 -> e2fsprogs. Grazzolini (talk) 13:15, 7 October 2019 (UTC)
So what do we do? It feels like we're making policy decisions, which shouldn't really be happening. -- nl6720 (talk) 06:00, 7 October 2019 (UTC)
We might need an additional section like "Install additional packages", either in Installation guide#Installation or Installation guide#Configure the system or somewhere in General recommendations. -- Lahwaacz (talk) 11:21, 7 October 2019 (UTC)
General recommendations would be too late for networking packages, but man-db, man-pages, texinfo, diffutils and less could be mentioned there.
Networking package installation would belong nicely in Installation guide#Network configuration and there already is a precedent for placing package installation in Installation guide#Configure the system with Installation guide#Boot loader (although that section is regularly criticized).
File system userspace utilities: Installation guide#Fstab is before chroot, so not there. Or maybe split Installation guide#Fstab into two parts (in archiso and in chroot), but that would needlessly complicate things. Maybe hint about it in Installation guide#Format the partitions and place the installation instructions in Installation guide#Installation?
Now, text editors ... After Installation guide#Chroot a text editor is needed otherwise users have to create and modify files with echo and sed which, although doable, is ridiculous. Maybe place it in Installation guide#Installation? While I feel that recommending any specific text editor would just lead to bikeshedding or perpetual complaints, but IMHO not recommending one would again be needless complication.
-- nl6720 (talk) 12:23, 7 October 2019 (UTC)
Would be nice to get a draft in this time, before merging the changes to the article (mea culpa on allowing editing of the installation guide without prior consultation.) -- Alad (talk) 15:17, 7 October 2019 (UTC)
I don't think any of my changes besides Special:Diff/584615 were that controversial. There's no simple way create a draft unless there's a consensus on what to put where. Otherwise you'll just get a draft for the whole page, which I consider to be a waste of time. -- nl6720 (talk) 15:33, 7 October 2019 (UTC)
I meant the things you mentioned in your last reply (text editors and all that stuff). Doesn't have to the whole page, just specific sections. -- Alad (talk) 08:02, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
I've made a quick draft, if you think it's an improvement we can merge it and then discuss if individual recommendations should be moved elsewhere. -- Lahwaacz (talk) 21:33, 9 October 2019 (UTC)
I'd like to see the note changed to a tip, but otherwise I support your draft. Another thing to consider, in Special:Diff/584590 I changed "specific wireless firmware" (i.e. Broadcom wireless) to "firmware files for devices". Maybe #Draft: Install essential packages should mention "specific wireless firmware". -- nl6720 (talk) 04:20, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
I've changed it, feel free to edit it further. -- Lahwaacz (talk) 06:46, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
Current version looks OK to me. -- nl6720 (talk) 08:04, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

Draft: Install essential packages

Use the pacstrap script to install the base package, Linux kernel and firmware for common hardware:

# pacstrap /mnt base linux linux-firmware
Tip: You can substitute linux for a kernel package of your choice. You can omit the installation of the kernel or the firmware package if you know what you are doing.

The base package does not include all tools from the live installation, so installing other packages may be necessary for a fully functional base system. In particular, consider installing:

To install other packages or package groups, append the names to the pacstrap command above (space separated) or use pacman after the chroot step. For comparison, packages available in the live system can be found in packages.x86_64.

A bit long, but LGTM -- Alad (talk) 20:43, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
OK, merged. -- Lahwaacz (talk) 13:32, 12 October 2019 (UTC)

Adding a brief installation summary

Most new people coming to the installation page do not have a clear view of the tasks required to have a complete linux/arch installation. And they seem to get lost in the dense pages. The contents links help, but they are a bit too technical.

I will post further suggestions for this, but for the now a brief summary at the top of the guide would probably help lots of people

Something like:


A typical linux installation would include the following parts (generalized and in non-absolute order)

  1. Installation medium preparation
  2. Disk partitioning
  3. Bootstrapping of the OS
  4. Locale setup
  5. Network setup
  6. Bootloader setup
  7. Users/Groups setup
  8. Driver setup
  9. Desktop setup

This guide will help you through these steps, the tools and options you have to complete each of them.

Please note that your choices can affect how next parts have to be executed. So please go through the entire guide, including linked pages, before you start.

It is also very helpful if you document your actions. Both for future reference and so that people can help you if you have issues.

And please avoid blindly following third party guides without consulting the wiki.


Dimkasta (talk) 17:03, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

The installation guide summary is all the summary you'll need. Desktop and other things is covered by post installation. Remember, the objective of the installation guide is to cover the absolute minimum to get (the now mandatory) base installed, so you can expand from that. Grazzolini (talk) 17:31, 28 October 2019 (UTC)
You can get a very similar summary by just looking at the current Table of Contents. -- Lahwaacz (talk) 17:34, 28 October 2019 (UTC)
Agreed, closing. -- Alad (talk) 14:23, 13 November 2019 (UTC)