Talk:Network configuration

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Revision as of 14:10, 9 October 2019 by Nl6720 (talk | contribs) (→‎Draft: update draft)
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Wired network configuration

The introduction states:

"This page explains how to set up a wired connection to a network. If you need to set up wireless networking see the Wireless network configuration page."

So, should this page be renamed to 'Wired network configuration ? Though in an ideal world, both Wired and Wireless configuration pages would be merged to reduce duplication, and move subtopics such as Troubleshooting to subpages ... -- Alad (talk) 14:39, 29 September 2015 (UTC)

I don't really mind the current state, i.e. Wireless network configuration building on top of Network configuration (with a small overlap in Wireless_network_configuration#Check_the_driver_status). Otherwise there would have to be a "Network configuration" page and "Wired" and "Wireless" subpages, but what content from the current Network configuration is specific to wired connections? I think only Network_configuration#Device_Driver (which is easy to generalize) and Network_configuration#Troubleshooting. On the other hand most of the content in Wireless network configuration is unique to wireless devices, so IMO it is more natural to have just 2 pages instead of 3. Maybe the introduction should be modified instead? -- Lahwaacz (talk) 16:30, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
If we keep two pages, perhaps we should move Wireless network configuration to Network configuration/Wireless, in addition to rewording the introduction? -- Alad (talk) 01:36, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
It might be argued that pages like dhcpcd, Internet sharing, Network bridge or MAC address spoofing could be all subpages of Network configuration, just like Wireless network configuration, and that's why they are all in Category:Networking already. That's exactly the problem Wikipedia decided to solve by not using subpages for categorization, which I think makes sense here. -- Lahwaacz (talk) 07:28, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

Device names

I've updated the section to also introduce users to Should we switch the whole section to prefer the systemd mechanism over udev? I'd vote in favor of systemd, since I believe systemd.links will instruct udev and not the other way round. I also find the link files easier to read and understand. We could keep the udev rules as a side note, but I'd rather remove them -1 (talk) 21:38, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

At least a note that udev processes the result of the link files should be kept. I'd also keep udev in Network_configuration#Reverting_to_traditional_device_names because contains more than just the way interface names are set up. Maybe it is not the best idea, it should be possible to override just the NamePolicy. -- Lahwaacz (talk) 21:51, 8 March 2017 (UTC)
Thank you. I'll just quickly read up on how the mechanism works exactly. I shall retain some information on udev as an alternative and remove overlaps. -1 (talk) 22:05, 8 March 2017 (UTC)
I'm sorry to say, but the rabbit hole got too deep and I sadly don't have the time to research this properly. I reverted the changes to the device name section since I don't want to leave the section in this unpolished state. I'd be happy if anyone wants to pick it up again: have a look at this diff. -1 (talk) 13:14, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

dhcpcd static profile expansion

In reference to the flag for expansion mentioning that the dhcpcd static profile is gone - it is now linked with the other network managers in the table. Static IP addresses can be assigned with all of the listed network managers, so I don't think we should list dhcpcd here as a special case. -- Rdeckard (talk) 15:39, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

Indeed, I missed that the table contains something else from the Network manager list. On second thought, maybe dhcpcd should be added there as well. -- Lahwaacz (talk) 20:53, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

Realtek RTL8111/8168B

The chipset version affected are shown as:

Ethernet controller: Realtek Semiconductor Co., Ltd. RTL8111/8168/8411 PCI Express Gigabit Ethernet Controller (rev 06)

Upon installation, the network would work sporadically and was not the result of misconfigured DNS. The issue is a hardware issue. The 8169 driver will work, but requires setting the kernel parameter iommu=soft on various AMD FX cpus.

David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E. -- Rankin Law Firm, PLLC (talk) 22:40, 22 January 2018 (UTC)

See Network_configuration#Gigabyte_Motherboard_with_Realtek_8111.2F8168.2F8411. -- Lahwaacz (talk) 22:50, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
Shall we cleanup these 2 sections and merge them into one? Isn't it observed only on AMD systems, I have this exact revision 06 with an intel based MB and I have not noticed issues. -- Kewl (talk) 12:12, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

Ongoing rewrite

I look at this page and see it has almost been completely rewritten without prior announcement. In the process, significant parts of the content have been removed (like most of the ping section) and some odd conventions like a full summary in the article introduction were added. Other things at a brief glance are the network manager table which was moved to a separate article that has otherwise no content. (Really?)

I'm tempted to revert the whole thing unless someone actually starts discussing these changes and restore content that was removed for no reason. -- Alad (talk) 21:34, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

I am also puzzled by the full revamp, there may be some interesting developments but some others should be discussed. The Installation guide directly refers to the page, it is therefore quite a sensitive and fundamental one. --- Kewl (talk) 03:54, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
I apologize for my lack of announcement. Regarding your remarks on the intro summary and network manager table, I agree and thus split the intro into Setup and Check the connection and re-merged Network manager. I also restored some details. Your allegations that I removed content without reasoning are however false. Whenever I remove something I explain why in the edit summary. Special:Diff/515809, Special:Diff/520516. The Check the connection section is now way more thorough than before. I removed the ping examples, an explanation of the Control-C command-line fundamental (should be explained elsewhere) and the explanation of the -c flag (not remarkable).
Explanation of my changes: I changed Network configuration to be about general network configuration as opposed to wired network configuration, because Wireless network configuration duplicated parts of Network configuration, in particular I merged both network manager tables into one[1], reducing duplication and providing a better overview. I generally revamped the Network management section, splitting up the ip address and ip route commands, listing more commands, linking related Wikipedia articles, briefly explaining networking fundamentals like the routing table & the default gateway. I also corrected some terminology (CIDR is not a subnet mask notation, the part after the slash is not the subnet_mask but the prefix_len) and improved a command (automatically broadcast address from the subnet mask). I created the DHCP section as contrary what the page previously implied dhcpcd is not a network manager.
--Larivact (talk) 06:31, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
While I agree on reducing duplication (see #Wired network configuration), ping is one of the very first commands a new user has to run on installation to verify the availability of an internet connection. That means a worked example is hardly unnecessary. -- Alad (talk) 14:39, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
Also please take some care when changing section names. Right now the installation guide has invalid links to this article because of the recent changes. edit: which seems fixed again -- Alad (talk) 15:52, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
I have better things to do than a full review of this, but what strikes me is that both Network configuration#Setup and Network configuration#Check the connection are basically just lists of forward references to other sections of the page and introducing ping in the middle of the page is pretty much useless. Not that the original layout was the best, but it was obvious where to start even without the setup section because the first section started with "The basic installation procedure typically has a functional network configuration. Use ping(8) to check the connection: ..." It was also pretty clear that the backbone of the page was the "Network management" section. The "Setup" section is basically an overview of "Network management" so why is it three sections above? -- Lahwaacz (talk) 20:45, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
Good point. I moved those sections as you suggested.--Larivact (talk) 04:09, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

Moving Ethernet-specific sections to Wired subpage

I think the article should be only about general network configuration, ie. OSI layer >= 3.

I therefore propose to:

  1. move Device driver, Tips and tricks/ifplugd for laptops, and all Troubleshooting sections except The TCP window scaling problem to Network configuration/Wired.
  2. rename Wireless network configuration to Network configuration/Wireless to make it clear that it's a subpage

--Larivact (talk) 07:03, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

There is already a discussion about this: #Wired network configuration. As I said there, there is too little content for the "wired" subpage compared to "wireless", so navigating between the three pages which closely build upon each other would be very confusing. Also, it could be argued that all pages from Category:Network configuration (and some from other subcategories of Category:Networking) should be subpages of Network configuration, because they build upon it pretty much the same way as Wireless network configuration, and I very very very much want to avoid such renaming. -- Lahwaacz (talk) 15:40, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
I think subpages would make perfect sense. Network configuration would describe network connection setup on OSI layer 3, Network configuration/Wired and Network configuration/Wireless would describe network connection setup on OSI layer 2. Yes we have other articles that build on a network connection but Network configuration and Wireless network configuration are the only articles about how to set up a network connection.--Larivact (talk) 17:05, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
The way I see it this article is already way too complex and hard to follow that we don't need yet another layer in the form of extra subpages. -- Alad (talk) 02:39, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
Network configuration is complex, I think the article is pretty straightforward. It would be just one extra page and I think it would clear things up instead of complicating them. --Larivact (talk) 03:31, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
I created a demo. Can you now see that it's an improvement? --Larivact (talk) 06:39, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
Alright, I do. -- Lahwaacz (talk) 07:18, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
In the demo, I don't see how User:Larivact/drafts/Network_configuration/Wired#Device_driver is specific to Wired devices, apart from the sample console output. That leaves a single item on ifplugd, and a Troubleshooting section. Now if you wanted to split off Troubleshooting from both Network configuration and Wireless network configuration that would be a different matter. -- Alad (talk) 22:07, 10 November 2018 (UTC)
It is specific in the sense that there is an analogous Wireless network configuration#Device driver. But even if it were just ifplugd and a Troubleshooting section, I don't see the problem. --Larivact (talk) 22:40, 10 November 2018 (UTC)
Looked at it again in closer detail and I'm fine with the change now. Apart that ping should be mentioned earlier than hidden away in a troubleshooting section at the back. -- Alad (talk) 18:44, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

Wifi Radar

The fact that Wifi Radar is a GUI application does not make it suitable for listing in the general "Network managers" section. Wireless_network_configuration#Utilities is more appropriate. —This unsigned comment is by Lahwaacz (talk) 1 June 2018‎. Please sign your posts with ~~~~!

Wifi Radar is a network manager and therefore belongs in Network configuration#Network managers. Also Wireless network configuration#Utilities implement wireless networking, while Wifi Radar doesn't.--Larivact (talk) 15:50, 10 June 2018 (UTC)
In that case WPA supplicant and iwd are network managers too. They should all be mentioned on the same page, which is Wireless network configuration. -- Lahwaacz (talk) 16:00, 10 June 2018 (UTC)
Good point but my argument that Wireless network configuration#Utilities implement wireless standards (WEXT, nl80211, WEP, WPA/WPA2) and Network configuration#Network managers don't still stands. --Larivact (talk) 04:58, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

Merge DHCP clients, network managers and wireless utilities tables

I propose merging Network configuration#DHCP, Network configuration#Network managers and Wireless network configuration#Utilities in one table. A lot of them depend or use one another and some can not be cleanly categorizes in only one category, e.g. dhcpcd is more than a simple DHCP client and iwd has built-in network configuration. I think that by placing them in one table it would be more easier to evaluate them and express their relationship.

I'll create a draft table in a while.

-- nl6720 (talk) 12:42, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

That table is a lot to take in, more so when half the entries have a large merged cell for wpa_supplicant. -- Alad (talk) 15:13, 7 October 2019 (UTC)
Two out of five also mention iwd :D But, I think, it does illustrate the relationship between the software in a better way than the separate tables.
This table has been on my mind for a while now, but now that I actually created it, it turned out more horrible than I though it would. I have no plans to merge it until the draft is in a usable state.
-- nl6720 (talk) 15:23, 7 October 2019 (UTC)
I'd definitely remove the "Systemd units" column, it is not necessary for users to make a choice - it's just an implementation detail which is described on the relevant wiki page (which users should definitely see before attempting to use it).
Also the "Wired" columns are misleading for wpa_supplicant, because it has a wired driver. Maybe just leave out "Wired" entirely, because green "Ethernet" is just an implication of green "Static" OR "DHCP", and most people don't care about "PPPoE" anyway.
-- Lahwaacz (talk) 16:38, 7 October 2019 (UTC)
Oh, right, it's that IEEE 802.1X thing.
I'm not certain about removing PPPoE, but I'd definitely like to remove WEXT and nl80211.
-- nl6720 (talk) 07:19, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
Yes, I think that WEXT and nl80211 can be removed... -- Lahwaacz (talk) 19:51, 8 October 2019 (UTC)


Software Package Archiso [2] Wired PPP
(e.g. 3G modem)
Wireless IP address and route management Interface
ISC dhclient dhclient Yes Yes ? ? No Yes Yes No
dhcpcd dhcpcd FS#64049 Yes ? Yes uses wpa_supplicant Yes Yes No No dhcpcd-uiAUR
ConnMan connman No Yes ? Yes (uses ofonoAUR) uses wpa_supplicant or iwd Yes Yes connmanctl(1) Yes Yes
netctl netctl FS#64049 Yes Yes (uses ppp) Yes uses wpa_supplicant Yes Yes (uses dhcpcd or dhclient) netctl(1) wifi-menu No
NetworkManager networkmanager No Yes Yes (uses rprp-pppoe) Yes uses wpa_supplicant or iwd Yes Yes (uses internal, dhclient or dhcpcd) nmcli(1) nmtui(1) Yes
systemd-networkd systemd Yes Yes No No No Yes Yes networkctl(1) No No
Wicd wicd No Yes No No uses wpa_supplicant Yes Yes (uses dhcpcd or dhclient) wicd-cli(8) wicd-curses(8) wicd-gtk
wireless_tools wireless_tools Yes No No Yes No No No
iw iw Yes No No Yes No No iw(8) No No
wpa_supplicant wpa_supplicant Yes Yes No No Yes Yes FS#57413 No wpa_cli(8) No wpa_supplicant_guiAUR
iwd iwd Yes Yes No No Yes Yes ? IPv4 only DHCPv4 only iwctl No No