Difference between revisions of "Talk:Table of contents"

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(Add Table of Contents link into left navigation panel: +1, with alternative)
("also in" links: Close old discussion. Also in works well over a year.)
(24 intermediate revisions by 4 users not shown)
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==<s> ToC restructuring </s> ==
 
I propose the following (major) changes to the ArchWiki category tree:
 
 
; <s>Removal of [[:Category:Pages sorted by type (English)]]</s>: Currently we distinguish between four types of articles: [[:Category:FAQs|FAQs]], [[:Category:General (English)|General]], [[:Category:Guidelines (English)|Guidelines]], and [[:Category:HOWTOs (English)|HOWTOs]]. I believe that the majority of FAQ articles should be merged into the main [[FAQ]]; the ''general'' category is not helpful in any way; almost all articles under ''guidelines'' deal with package management (see [[:Category:Package development]] instead); and every article is a HOWTO in the sense that it explains how to install/configure/etc. something (further, ArchWiki is moving away from the HOWTO style of writing (step 1, step 2, step 3...))
 
 
; <s>Flattening of the tree</s>: The [[:Category:System administration]] and [[:Category:Desktop user's guide (English)]] categories are unnecessary and confusing. Consider '''Desktop user's guide''' -> '''[[:Category:Utilities (English)]]''' (utilities not used for system administration?) and '''System administration''' -> '''Software''' -> '''[[:Category:Display managers]]''' (display managers not used by desktop users?) Similarly, the [[:Category:Hardware (English)]] and [[:Category:Software]] categories can easily be eliminated. Categories that relate specifically to hardware can be renamed (e.g. '''Hardware''' -> '''[[:Category:Graphics]]''' can become '''Graphics hardware''').
 
 
; i18n standardization: Non-English categories should follow the naming scheme ''Title in English (Language)''. See [[Help:i18n]] for details. [[Template:i18n]] should be included on all category pages. Furthermore, all category titles should be appropriately capitalized (Like a Title).
 
 
Are there any objections? I will prepare an outline of my imagined category tree shortly.
 
 
-- [[User:Pointone|pointone]] 20:20, 10 May 2011 (EDT)
 
 
:+1 for all. :-) Unfortunately I don't have much time and will have even less. -- [[User:Karol|Karol]] 20:33, 10 May 2011 (EDT)
 
::I'm in favour of points 1 and 3 but basically against the systematic flattening of the tree, but it's just a matter of taste, and we are 2 vs 1 here, so I'll just shut up now :D -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] 09:21, 11 May 2011 (EDT)
 
:::Phew! That was one mess of work! No longer do we distinguish between article ''topics'' and ''types''. I will propose changes to the tree regarding (2) in detail before committing to anything. -- [[User:Pointone|pointone]] 17:08, 10 June 2011 (EDT)
 
::::Very good job pointone, it has surely been worth the effort! -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] 10:24, 11 June 2011 (EDT)
 
 
:How about using native category names with redirects to i18n named categories on category pages? --[[User:AlexanderR|AlexanderR]] ([[User talk:AlexanderR|talk]])
 
::Actually I was thinking to propose the liberalization of titles for all pages (not only categories), but only '''after''' implementing [[Help_talk:I18n#.22Dummy.22_interlanguage_links_and_deprecation_of_Template:i18n]]. Please, until then let's stick with the current standard: we'll discuss this thing after that, there's already lots of stuff going on in that talk page :) -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 20:30, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
 
:::Done. Thank you for pointing to [[Help_talk:I18n]]. Good luck with i18n work! --[[User:AlexanderR|AlexanderR]] ([[User talk:AlexanderR|talk]])
 
::::  i18n standardization split to its own topic. Close fininshed ToC restructuring part. -- [[User:Fengchao|Fengchao]] ([[User talk:Fengchao|talk]]) 04:08, 21 June 2012 (UTC)
 
 
 
== i18n standardization ==
 
== i18n standardization ==
 
Non-English categories should follow the naming scheme ''Title in English (Language)''. See [[Help:i18n]] for details. [[Template:i18n]] should be included on all category pages. Furthermore, all category titles should be appropriately capitalized (Like a Title).
 
Non-English categories should follow the naming scheme ''Title in English (Language)''. See [[Help:i18n]] for details. [[Template:i18n]] should be included on all category pages. Furthermore, all category titles should be appropriately capitalized (Like a Title).
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:Maybe not so easily, since I'd need a dictionary of words that should be left lower-case. -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 20:51, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
 
:Maybe not so easily, since I'd need a dictionary of words that should be left lower-case. -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 20:51, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
  
=="also in" links==
+
==<s> "also in" links</s> ==
 
Do you like seeing the "also in" links next to categories that have more than one parent? -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] 06:56, 1 March 2012 (EST)
 
Do you like seeing the "also in" links next to categories that have more than one parent? -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] 06:56, 1 March 2012 (EST)
 
:Related discussion: [[Help talk:Style#Category pages - tree or otherwise?]] If we return to a tree structure, "also in" links would not exist. -- [[User:Pointone|pointone]] 19:18, 13 March 2012 (EDT)
 
:Related discussion: [[Help talk:Style#Category pages - tree or otherwise?]] If we return to a tree structure, "also in" links would not exist. -- [[User:Pointone|pointone]] 19:18, 13 March 2012 (EDT)
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Currently only Spanish, French, Italian and Portuguese have a translated "also in" string for categories with more than one parent, all the others are using the English wording. Please request new translations here. -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] 05:59, 12 March 2012 (EDT)
 
Currently only Spanish, French, Italian and Portuguese have a translated "also in" string for categories with more than one parent, all the others are using the English wording. Please request new translations here. -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] 05:59, 12 March 2012 (EDT)
  
== Add Table of Contents link into left navigation panel   ==
+
== <s> Add Table of Contents link into left navigation panel </s> ==
  
 
Sometime I want to visit this Table of Contents page. Right now I have to click to Main Page and then Click the link on the top.  Why not add a link into navigation part on left page. It will be more visiable their. -- [[User:Fengchao|Fengchao]] ([[User talk:Fengchao|talk]]) 04:14, 21 June 2012 (UTC)
 
Sometime I want to visit this Table of Contents page. Right now I have to click to Main Page and then Click the link on the top.  Why not add a link into navigation part on left page. It will be more visiable their. -- [[User:Fengchao|Fengchao]] ([[User talk:Fengchao|talk]]) 04:14, 21 June 2012 (UTC)
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:::Sounds good! A possible alternative would be to include the ToC on the Main Page itself. -- [[User:Pointone|pointone]] ([[User talk:Pointone|talk]]) 15:04, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
 
:::Sounds good! A possible alternative would be to include the ToC on the Main Page itself. -- [[User:Pointone|pointone]] ([[User talk:Pointone|talk]]) 15:04, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
 +
 +
::::For the moment I've added the link to the navigation pane (also for curiosity ^^ ), although I don't understand why our [[MediaWiki:Sidebar]] had been deleted (automatically with an update?) with a "No longer required" summary.
 +
::::The idea of reorganizing the [[Main Page]] however is kind of interesting, it would be worth discussing it separately :) Maybe instead of adding the whole ToC we could add only some major categories, or create a section with featured articles...
 +
::::-- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 10:56, 25 June 2012 (UTC)
 +
::::: Where to translate "Table of Contents" to other language ? I can not find it. -- [[User:Fengchao|Fengchao]] ([[User talk:Fengchao|talk]]) 02:11, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
 +
::::::I'll see what can be done, thanks for the report. -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 08:06, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
 +
:::::::We'd probably need to create and translate a system message: [[Special:AllMessages]] says ''"This is a list of system messages available in the MediaWiki namespace. Please visit [[mw:Localisation|MediaWiki Localisation]] and [https://translatewiki.net/ translatewiki.net] if you wish to contribute to the generic MediaWiki localisation."''. I don't have a clear idea of what we should do now, there's still the alternative of adding the ToC to the main page. -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 19:52, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
 +
::::::::I fount the page to change at last :) Please help edit [[MediaWiki:Sidebar/zh-cn]] and Change it to the following. Thanks.
 +
::::::::{{bc|<nowiki>* navigation
 +
** Main Page (简体中文)|mainpage-description
 +
** Table of Contents|内容目录
 +
** Getting_Involved_(简体中文)|portal
 +
** ArchWiki:News (简体中文)|currentevents
 +
** recentchanges-url|recentchanges
 +
** randompage-url|randompage
 +
** helppage|help
 +
* SEARCH
 +
* TOOLBOX
 +
* LANGUAGES</nowiki>
 +
}}
 +
:::::::: -- [[User:Fengchao|Fengchao]] ([[User talk:Fengchao|talk]]) 01:18, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
 +
:::::::::For some reason it doesn't seem to work, can you confirm? -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 15:04, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
 +
:::::::::: Yes, it does not work, so sad. -- [[User:Fengchao|Fengchao]] ([[User talk:Fengchao|talk]]) 00:47, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
 +
:::::::::::Right, I've restored the default message. If you're interested you can share your opinion in [[MediaWiki talk:Sidebar#Localization]]. -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 02:46, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
 +
:::::Currently there's a problem with the cache and the link to [[Table of Contents]] is visible only on a minority of pages: it should be visible when logged in, or by appending {{ic|1=?action=purge}} to the url when not logged in (see [[mw:Manual:Purge]]). I hope the cache will refresh automatically in the next days. -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 08:02, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
 +
::::::Apparently the cache doesn't refresh this feature, instead it refreshes it only as the pages are edited and saved (or just purged as shown above). -- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 19:52, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
 +
::::::: Change to ''Category'' and now it is translated (after cache is refreshed). Close. -- [[User:Fengchao|Fengchao]] ([[User talk:Fengchao|talk]]) 03:20, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
 +
 +
== <s> Remove [[:Category:Daemons and system services]] </s> ==
 +
There are too many pages in [[:Category:Daemons and system services]] which make it harder to navigate. [[Daemons List]] has short descriptions which are much better than a category. Should we remove [[:Category:Daemons and system services]] and put pages their into other categories? -- [[User:Fengchao|Fengchao]] ([[User talk:Fengchao|talk]]) 06:04, 5 November 2012 (UTC)
 +
 +
:Well, you may be right, also because it's extremely unlikely that one first decides he needs a daemon/service (by visiting [[:Category:Daemons and system services]]) and only then thinks of the functionality it must provide (by choosing a daemon in [[:Category:Daemons and system services]]); the inverse is more natural, i.e. first think of the needed functionality (by navigating to the proper category using e.g. the [[Table of Contents]]), and then pick up the right application for the purpose (by choosing one in that particular category, be it a daemon or not).
 +
:I think the problem can be extended to other categories, though, in fact here we're discussing whether Categories should only group articles by the ''provided functionality'' or ''purpose'', or they could also group them by the ''method'' used for providing that functionality or fulfilling that purpose. The difference can be subtle sometimes, but if we exclude the second possibility, other categories that could be deleted may be [[:Category:FAQs]], [[:Category:Dotfiles]], [[:Category:Scripts]].
 +
:More opinions are welcome :)
 +
:-- [[User:Kynikos|Kynikos]] ([[User talk:Kynikos|talk]]) 07:01, 18 November 2012 (UTC)
 +
:: Well, [[:Category:FAQs]] is already on my todo list :).
 +
::[[:Category:Dotfiles]] can be deleted or rename to [[:Category:Configuration Files]].
 +
::[[:Category:Scripts]] is sometime used as a dumping area of unnecessary long code. Some pages in it can be moved to other categories first. Then check again to see if it can be removed.
 +
::If no one oppose this idea. I will start with removing [[:Category:Daemons and system services]] .
 +
::--[[User:Fengchao|Fengchao]] ([[User talk:Fengchao|talk]]) 23:18, 19 November 2012 (UTC)
 +
::: The clean up is done. Some log daemon/systemd/ininscript pages are lelft there. Not finding other places for them. A new topic may needed. Close this.
 +
::: -- [[User:Fengchao|Fengchao]] ([[User talk:Fengchao|talk]]) 03:27, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Revision as of 06:05, 6 April 2013

i18n standardization

Non-English categories should follow the naming scheme Title in English (Language). See Help:i18n for details. Template:i18n should be included on all category pages. Furthermore, all category titles should be appropriately capitalized (Like a Title).

Are there any objections? I will prepare an outline of my imagined category tree shortly.

-- pointone 20:20, 10 May 2011 (EDT)

How about using native category names with redirects to i18n named categories on category pages? --AlexanderR (talk)
Actually I was thinking to propose the liberalization of titles for all pages (not only categories), but only after implementing Help_talk:I18n#.22Dummy.22_interlanguage_links_and_deprecation_of_Template:i18n. Please, until then let's stick with the current standard: we'll discuss this thing after that, there's already lots of stuff going on in that talk page :) -- Kynikos (talk) 20:30, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
Done. Thank you for pointing to Help_talk:I18n. Good luck with i18n work! --AlexanderR (talk)

Capitalization

[split from a previous discussion, now closed. -- Kynikos 16:48, 23 April 2012 (EDT)]

As I began sorting and standardizing the Spanish categories, I realized that many English categories have improper capitalization. These issues could probably more efficiently be dealt with simultaneously. --Emiralle 21:46, 10 September 2011 (EDT)

I can easily solve this one with my bot, although it's not urgent. -- Kynikos 16:48, 23 April 2012 (EDT)
Maybe not so easily, since I'd need a dictionary of words that should be left lower-case. -- Kynikos (talk) 20:51, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

"also in" links

Do you like seeing the "also in" links next to categories that have more than one parent? -- Kynikos 06:56, 1 March 2012 (EST)

Related discussion: Help talk:Style#Category pages - tree or otherwise? If we return to a tree structure, "also in" links would not exist. -- pointone 19:18, 13 March 2012 (EDT)
But maybe in that case displaying them would be even more important, as a means of detecting violations to the rule. -- Kynikos 08:27, 14 March 2012 (EDT)
Quite right. My vote is conditional upon the tree decision, then. If a tree structure is enforced, display it to detect violations. If we allow multiple categories, however, hide it to avoid clutter. -- pointone 13:04, 15 March 2012 (EDT)
Ah kk your position is perfectly clear. However I wouldn't consider the ToC only as a tool for end-users, I think it's also very useful for maintainers, in fact being able to spot multi-parent categories (be them allowed or not) gives a clearer idea of how the articles are structured.
Some ideas to reduce/avoid clutter:
(I'll probably implement this solution for the next update)
(for this option, place the mouse on the asterisk; we can use another symbol, like + ^ #  !)
-- Kynikos 07:06, 16 March 2012 (EDT)
The first idea is implemented currently with <small>. -- Kynikos 11:56, 18 March 2012 (EDT)

Poll

Display it
[vote with : ~~~~]
thestinger 00:48, 2 March 2012 (EST)
Skydiver 00:51, 2 March 2012 (EST)
Kynikos 05:09, 2 March 2012 (EST)
Don't display it
[vote with : ~~~~]
Fengchao 20:09, 1 March 2012 (EST)
pointone 19:18, 13 March 2012 (EDT)

"also in" translations

Currently only Spanish, French, Italian and Portuguese have a translated "also in" string for categories with more than one parent, all the others are using the English wording. Please request new translations here. -- Kynikos 05:59, 12 March 2012 (EDT)

Add Table of Contents link into left navigation panel

Sometime I want to visit this Table of Contents page. Right now I have to click to Main Page and then Click the link on the top. Why not add a link into navigation part on left page. It will be more visiable their. -- Fengchao (talk) 04:14, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

Actually this seems a pretty cool idea to me! It's as easy as editing MediaWiki:Sidebar: what about putting the link in second place, right below the link to Main Page? -- Kynikos (talk) 09:50, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
That is my prefered location too. -- Fengchao (talk) 14:02, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
Sounds good! A possible alternative would be to include the ToC on the Main Page itself. -- pointone (talk) 15:04, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
For the moment I've added the link to the navigation pane (also for curiosity ^^ ), although I don't understand why our MediaWiki:Sidebar had been deleted (automatically with an update?) with a "No longer required" summary.
The idea of reorganizing the Main Page however is kind of interesting, it would be worth discussing it separately :) Maybe instead of adding the whole ToC we could add only some major categories, or create a section with featured articles...
-- Kynikos (talk) 10:56, 25 June 2012 (UTC)
Where to translate "Table of Contents" to other language ? I can not find it. -- Fengchao (talk) 02:11, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
I'll see what can be done, thanks for the report. -- Kynikos (talk) 08:06, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
We'd probably need to create and translate a system message: Special:AllMessages says "This is a list of system messages available in the MediaWiki namespace. Please visit MediaWiki Localisation and translatewiki.net if you wish to contribute to the generic MediaWiki localisation.". I don't have a clear idea of what we should do now, there's still the alternative of adding the ToC to the main page. -- Kynikos (talk) 19:52, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
I fount the page to change at last :) Please help edit MediaWiki:Sidebar/zh-cn and Change it to the following. Thanks.
* navigation
** Main Page (简体中文)|mainpage-description
** Table of Contents|内容目录
** Getting_Involved_(简体中文)|portal
** ArchWiki:News (简体中文)|currentevents
** recentchanges-url|recentchanges
** randompage-url|randompage
** helppage|help
* SEARCH
* TOOLBOX
* LANGUAGES
-- Fengchao (talk) 01:18, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
For some reason it doesn't seem to work, can you confirm? -- Kynikos (talk) 15:04, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
Yes, it does not work, so sad. -- Fengchao (talk) 00:47, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
Right, I've restored the default message. If you're interested you can share your opinion in MediaWiki talk:Sidebar#Localization. -- Kynikos (talk) 02:46, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
Currently there's a problem with the cache and the link to Table of Contents is visible only on a minority of pages: it should be visible when logged in, or by appending ?action=purge to the url when not logged in (see mw:Manual:Purge). I hope the cache will refresh automatically in the next days. -- Kynikos (talk) 08:02, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
Apparently the cache doesn't refresh this feature, instead it refreshes it only as the pages are edited and saved (or just purged as shown above). -- Kynikos (talk) 19:52, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
Change to Category and now it is translated (after cache is refreshed). Close. -- Fengchao (talk) 03:20, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Remove Category:Daemons and system services

There are too many pages in Category:Daemons and system services which make it harder to navigate. Daemons List has short descriptions which are much better than a category. Should we remove Category:Daemons and system services and put pages their into other categories? -- Fengchao (talk) 06:04, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

Well, you may be right, also because it's extremely unlikely that one first decides he needs a daemon/service (by visiting Category:Daemons and system services) and only then thinks of the functionality it must provide (by choosing a daemon in Category:Daemons and system services); the inverse is more natural, i.e. first think of the needed functionality (by navigating to the proper category using e.g. the Table of Contents), and then pick up the right application for the purpose (by choosing one in that particular category, be it a daemon or not).
I think the problem can be extended to other categories, though, in fact here we're discussing whether Categories should only group articles by the provided functionality or purpose, or they could also group them by the method used for providing that functionality or fulfilling that purpose. The difference can be subtle sometimes, but if we exclude the second possibility, other categories that could be deleted may be Category:FAQs, Category:Dotfiles, Category:Scripts.
More opinions are welcome :)
-- Kynikos (talk) 07:01, 18 November 2012 (UTC)
Well, Category:FAQs is already on my todo list :).
Category:Dotfiles can be deleted or rename to Category:Configuration Files.
Category:Scripts is sometime used as a dumping area of unnecessary long code. Some pages in it can be moved to other categories first. Then check again to see if it can be removed.
If no one oppose this idea. I will start with removing Category:Daemons and system services .
--Fengchao (talk) 23:18, 19 November 2012 (UTC)
The clean up is done. Some log daemon/systemd/ininscript pages are lelft there. Not finding other places for them. A new topic may needed. Close this.
-- Fengchao (talk) 03:27, 6 April 2013 (UTC)