Difference between revisions of "Talk:Wireless network configuration"

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== Wireless status ==
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== <s>Management methods</s> ==
  
My2c regarding the [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Wireless_Setup#Check_the_driver_status Check the driver status] sub-section:
+
I'd say [[Wireless_Setup#Management_methods]] is quite useless in current state. The basic info [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Wireless_Setup&diff=269769&oldid=269767 has been moved] into the introduction in [[Wireless_Setup#Wireless_management]]. The first table says absolutely nothing, there's nothing to compare. The second table could be (expanded and) moved to [[Wireless_Setup#Automatic_setup]], but I think it's better to describe the software in sentences. -- [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 13:00, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
 +
:The first table denotes the first mention of the packages ({{Pkg|wpa_supplicant}} et al) now. They were linked in the summary but that para was rm'ed. I still think they should be pointed at on that page, early too. The second sould be moved down and could need an overhaul, yes. The column like "autoconnect on boot" is pretty useless for starters.--[[User:Indigo|Indigo]] ([[User talk:Indigo|talk]]) 21:20, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
 +
::Is your point that there's no ''Install userspace tools'' section at the beginning? I think the userspace tools are only needed in [[Wireless Setup#Manual setup]] (and [[Wireless Setup#Troubleshooting]] of course, but [[Wireless Setup#Device driver]] mentions it). People who read [[Wireless Setup#Device driver]] and then skip to [[Wireless Setup#Automatic setup]] do not have to install them explicitly, they are installed as dependencies to network managers (note that [[netctl]] does not require {{Pkg|iw}} nor {{Pkg|wireless_tools}}). I'm not against adding such section, but I don't see any content which would fit there. If you have an idea, feel free to discuss/edit the page. -- [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 22:44, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
 +
:::I agree with the managers dependency bit and don't want to create a new subsection on userspace either. But I was giving you a reason why the first table is not useless, since the tools are used right in the next section (which is manual setup). I can edit it a bit later.  --[[User:Indigo|Indigo]] ([[User talk:Indigo|talk]]) 18:01, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
 +
:::Done some editing. I would leave the first table in, but it is true that [[Wireless Setup#Manual setup]] mentions packages now too. Contextually it works better like this then rm'ing the table imo though. I added manual connection to the second table to see how it works out. If the second table gets moved down to the tools, that line should go again of course. Thoughts? --[[User:Indigo|Indigo]] ([[User talk:Indigo|talk]]) 10:28, 11 August 2013 (UTC)
 +
::::I don't like the first table listing multiple tools in one cell with no apparent reason (''ip'' even twice), so I suggest reorganizing the table like this:
 +
{| border="1"
 +
! Management method<br>(/=alternatives) || Interface activation || Wireless connection management || Assigning IP address
 +
|-
 +
| Manually managed,<br>with no or WEP encryption || [https://www.archlinux.org/packages/?name=iproute2 ip] || {{Pkg|iw}} / [https://www.archlinux.org/packages/?name=wireless_tools iwconfig] || [https://www.archlinux.org/packages/?name=iproute2 ip] / {{Pkg|dhcpcd}} / {{Pkg|dhclient}}
 +
|-
 +
| Manually managed,<br>with WPA or WPA2 PSK encryption || [https://www.archlinux.org/packages/?name=iproute2 ip] || {{Pkg|iw}} / [https://www.archlinux.org/packages/?name=wireless_tools iwconfig] + [[WPA supplicant|wpa_supplicant]] || [https://www.archlinux.org/packages/?name=iproute2 ip] / {{Pkg|dhcpcd}} / {{Pkg|dhclient}}
 +
|-
 +
| Automatically managed,<br>with network profiles support || colspan="3" align="center" | [[netctl]], [[Wicd]], [[NetworkManager]], etc.
 +
|}
 +
::::The second table should compare tools for the automatic method, I wouldn't list ''manual'' there. I'm not even sure if [[wvdial]] should be listed there, you could add [[pppd]] for the same reason.
 +
::::As for moving the tables, I'd merge the first table into the introduction of [[Wireless Setup#Wireless management]] (effectively just removing the section heading) and move the second table into [[Wireless Setup#Automatic setup]].
 +
::::-- [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 11:21, 11 August 2013 (UTC)
 +
:::::As I look at the table now, it seems highly inaccurate - ''netctl'', ''wicd'' and ''NetworkManager'' use ''wpa_supplicant'' and ''dhcpcd'' internally (wicd even uses ''net-tools'' and ''wireless_tools''), you just don't have to manage them directly. Perhaps that should be mentioned. -- [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 11:38, 11 August 2013 (UTC)
 +
::::::Yes, I added that, thanks. Networkmanager uses dhclient btw. And your version is much better, yes. Just changing it slightly
 +
{| border="1"
 +
! Management method || Interface activation || Wireless connection management <br>(/=alternatives) || Assigning IP address <br>(/=alternatives)
 +
|-
 +
| Manually managed,<br>with no or WEP encryption || [https://www.archlinux.org/packages/?name=iproute2 ip] || {{Pkg|iw}} / [https://www.archlinux.org/packages/?name=wireless_tools iwconfig] || [https://www.archlinux.org/packages/?name=iproute2 ip] / {{Pkg|dhcpcd}} / {{Pkg|dhclient}}
 +
|-
 +
| Manually managed,<br>with WPA or WPA2 PSK encryption || [https://www.archlinux.org/packages/?name=iproute2 ip] || {{Pkg|iw}} / [https://www.archlinux.org/packages/?name=wireless_tools iwconfig] + [[WPA supplicant|wpa_supplicant]] || [https://www.archlinux.org/packages/?name=iproute2 ip] / {{Pkg|dhcpcd}} / {{Pkg|dhclient}}
 +
|-
 +
| Automatically managed,<br>with network profiles support || colspan="3" align="center" | [[netctl]], [[Wicd]], [[NetworkManager]], etc.<br>
 +
These tools pull in the required dependencies from the list of packages in the manual method.
 +
|}
  
[quote]
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::::::Replace it, if you are ok with it. I'm fine with your other suggestions too. The reason I added wvdial was to make clear networkmanager is not the only alternative for 3G. --[[User:Indigo|Indigo]] ([[User talk:Indigo|talk]]) 12:34, 11 August 2013 (UTC)
 +
:::::::Looks good, I've updated it with slight change to the links. Next I'll try to update the second table. -- [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 14:20, 11 August 2013 (UTC)
 +
::::::::I consider this issue solved, closing. -- [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 10:56, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
 +
:::::::::Yes, also the second table works well now after your move/edit. I learned on the way that netctl also supports ppp/3G modems; great tool they built. --[[User:Indigo|Indigo]] ([[User talk:Indigo|talk]]) 22:37, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
  
Check kernel messages for firmware being loaded
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== Wireless status ==
  
$ dmesg |grep firmware
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My2c regarding the [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Wireless_Setup#Check_the_driver_status Check the driver status] sub-section:
 
 
[  7.148259] iwlwifi 0000:02:00.0: loaded firmware version 39.30.4.1 build 35138 op_mode iwldvm
 
 
 
[/quote]
 
 
 
The search keyword 'firmware' was not included in the kernel message for my wireless driver. Being new to manual setup I didn't think about the command dmesg, and assumed the output meant my kernel was not loaded. However the previous command lspci -k had indicated it was loaded creating unnecessary confusion.
 
 
 
I suggest the keyword 'firmware' be changed to reflect the output of the earlier test, lspci -k, in order to maintain continuity. This could change to an adopted convention as with a note further down the page
 
[quote] Note: Examples in this section assume that your wireless device is wlan0 to connect to your_essid wifi accesspoint. Replace both accordingly. [/quote] Or use man page conventions, dmesg | grep [kernel driver] But since I'm a novice, I can't be certain the dmesg output will _always_ include the driver named by lspci on the relevant dmesg line.
 
 
 
See also this [https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=167305 this poster's attempt] at describing his wireless setup. Its thorough, but it also shows the same discontinuity. "iwlwifi" is the kernel driver, but the output from his posted lspci command seems to be truncated and does not include the driver name (in a sea of some unfamiliar commands, parameters, and device/software proper names).
 
:Thanks for the input and explaining the reasoning. I left the keyword in but expanded the last para accordingly. Have a look [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Wireless_Setup&diff=275272&oldid=274428|1], if it is what you mean. The bbs example you link up there is not fully on spot though, because in that case the (brandnew AC) device is not recognised in mainline kernel yet. That would be more a case for the next section [[Wireless_Setup#Installing_driver.2Ffirmware]]. How does the firmware of your card show up in the messages? --[[User:Indigo|Indigo]] ([[User talk:Indigo|talk]]) 09:42, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
 
 
 
::OK, you were quicker ;)
 
::[[Wireless Setup#Device driver]] says that "Some wireless chipsets also require firmware", it is possible that the wireless chipset does not require firmware. It is indeed possible that the word "firmware" is not present in the output though a firmware is being loaded. Out of curiosity, what is your chipset, Xtian?
 
::I've slightly changed the section too: [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Wireless_Setup&diff=275277&oldid=275276]
 
::@Xtian: please read [[Help:Style]], your post was not very readable. When quoting part of ArchWiki pages, it is a good idea to copy the ''code'' instead of just ''text'' to preserve the original formatting. Also remember to [[Help:Style#Discussion_pages|sign]] your posts to talk pages.
 
::-- [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 10:11, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
 
 
 
== <s>We missed a deprecated iwconfig command</s> ==
 
 
 
Regarding the note in [[Wireless Setup#Getting an IP address]]:
 
 
 
{{Note|If you get a timeout error due to a ''waiting for carrier'' problem, then you might have to set the channel mode to {{ic|auto}} for the specific device:
 
# iwconfig wlan0 channel auto
 
Before changing the channel to auto, make sure your wireless interface (in this case {{ic|wlan0}}) is '''down'''. After it has successfully changed it, you can again bring the interface up and continue from there.
 
}}
 
 
 
''iw'' does not support {{ic|auto}} channel/freq mode. I'm somewhat suspicious about this, I think it is the default behaviour to autoselect the channel/freq of the AP. What do you say, can the note be removed? Or is there other solution?
 
 
 
-- [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 11:38, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
 
:Yes, auto sure is the default. I just tried the contrary, i.e. to set a channel with iw and in fact it fails (iwlwifi; ressource busy as response). Nonetheless, pre-selecting a channel on client side definetely is used less and less nowadays. Most use more than one channel anyway with wifi-n. What I would do is move the note down into troubleshooting as a separate point. But I would leave the "iwconfig" commands in the troubleshootng sections for now and not replace them. Rather use iw when the info gets other updates. --[[User:Indigo|Indigo]] ([[User talk:Indigo|talk]]) 14:45, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
 
  
::I've moved the note into [[Wireless_Setup#Failed_to_get_IP_address]], thanks for the suggestion. I don't mind the ''iwconfig'' commands in troubleshooting section(s) too, updating troubleshooting sections as a whole is very shaky as it is difficult to simulate the same conditions. -- [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 13:01, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
+
    Check kernel messages for firmware being loaded
 +
    $ dmesg |grep '''firmware'''
 +
    [  7.148259] iwlwifi 0000:02:00.0: loaded firmware version 39.30.4.1 build 35138 op_mode iwldvm
  
== <s>Access point discovery</s> ==
+
The search keyword 'firmware' was not included in the kernel message for ''my'' wireless driver. Being new to manual setup I didn't think about the command dmesg, and assumed the output meant my kernel was not loaded. However the previous command lspci -k had indicated it was loaded creating unnecessary confusion.
  
[[Wireless_Setup#Access_point_discovery]] contains outdated information, the values listed there are for ''iwlist'' and ''iw'' has completely different output.
+
I suggest the keyword 'firmware' be changed to reflect the output of the earlier test, lspci -k, in order to maintain continuity.  
  
* ESSID -> SSID: this was simple [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Wireless_Setup&diff=275299&oldid=275295]
+
This could take the form of the adopted convention in the note further down the page:
* Quality: ''iw'' does not report quality as a percentage, only signal strength
 
* Encryption key: the value ''on''/''off'' is not reported, but looking at the code of ''iw'' I think that the network is encrypted when {{ic|Privacy}} is in {{ic|capability:}} line. For example, when there is {{ic|capability: ESS Privacy ShortSlotTime (0x0411)}} in the output of {{ic|iw dev wlan0 scan}}, then the network is encrypted.
 
** WPA and RSN are apparent blocks, but WEP is not
 
** Group cipher, Pairwise ciphers, Authentication suites: very clear, need to check available values - it may be useless, we can reword it to allow additional values (the wiki does not have to list all).
 
  
This is very shaky because {{ic|iw -h}} says {{ic|Do NOT screenscrape this tool, we don't consider its output stable.}}, but I think the update is necessary.
+
    Note: Examples in this section assume that your wireless device is wlan0
 +
    to connect to your_essid wifi  accesspoint. Replace both accordingly.  
  
-- [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 12:53, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
+
Or use man page conventions:  
:Yes, that needs update indeed. You are right with the {{ic|Privacy}} as indicator. Good explanation to rephrase it is [http://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/63069/the-n-mode-on-iwlist-wlan0-scan].
+
    dmesg | grep [kernel driver] // output of #lspci -k
:The ''encryption'' reported by iwconfig was never right anyway. If ever, it only worked for wep (sometimes..). --[[User:Indigo|Indigo]] ([[User talk:Indigo|talk]]) 15:01, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
 
  
::Thanks for the link, I've updated the section a little: [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?title=Wireless_Setup&diff=275491&oldid=275354] -- [[User:Lahwaacz|Lahwaacz]] ([[User talk:Lahwaacz|talk]]) 12:36, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
+
But since I'm a novice, I can't be certain the dmesg output will _always_ include the driver named by lspci on the relevant dmesg line. See also this [https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=167305 this poster's attempt] at describing his wireless setup. Its thorough, but it also shows the same discontinuity. "iwlwifi" is the kernel driver, but the output from his posted lspci command seems to be truncated and does not include the driver name (in a sea of some unfamiliar commands, parameters, and device/software proper names).
:::Reads clear and concise to me. I take the freedom to close this for you. --[[User:Indigo|Indigo]] ([[User talk:Indigo|talk]]) 16:13, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
 

Revision as of 15:57, 15 September 2013

Management methods

I'd say Wireless_Setup#Management_methods is quite useless in current state. The basic info has been moved into the introduction in Wireless_Setup#Wireless_management. The first table says absolutely nothing, there's nothing to compare. The second table could be (expanded and) moved to Wireless_Setup#Automatic_setup, but I think it's better to describe the software in sentences. -- Lahwaacz (talk) 13:00, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

The first table denotes the first mention of the packages (wpa_supplicant et al) now. They were linked in the summary but that para was rm'ed. I still think they should be pointed at on that page, early too. The second sould be moved down and could need an overhaul, yes. The column like "autoconnect on boot" is pretty useless for starters.--Indigo (talk) 21:20, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
Is your point that there's no Install userspace tools section at the beginning? I think the userspace tools are only needed in Wireless Setup#Manual setup (and Wireless Setup#Troubleshooting of course, but Wireless Setup#Device driver mentions it). People who read Wireless Setup#Device driver and then skip to Wireless Setup#Automatic setup do not have to install them explicitly, they are installed as dependencies to network managers (note that netctl does not require iw nor wireless_tools). I'm not against adding such section, but I don't see any content which would fit there. If you have an idea, feel free to discuss/edit the page. -- Lahwaacz (talk) 22:44, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
I agree with the managers dependency bit and don't want to create a new subsection on userspace either. But I was giving you a reason why the first table is not useless, since the tools are used right in the next section (which is manual setup). I can edit it a bit later. --Indigo (talk) 18:01, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
Done some editing. I would leave the first table in, but it is true that Wireless Setup#Manual setup mentions packages now too. Contextually it works better like this then rm'ing the table imo though. I added manual connection to the second table to see how it works out. If the second table gets moved down to the tools, that line should go again of course. Thoughts? --Indigo (talk) 10:28, 11 August 2013 (UTC)
I don't like the first table listing multiple tools in one cell with no apparent reason (ip even twice), so I suggest reorganizing the table like this:
Management method
(/=alternatives)
Interface activation Wireless connection management Assigning IP address
Manually managed,
with no or WEP encryption
ip iw / iwconfig ip / dhcpcd / dhclient
Manually managed,
with WPA or WPA2 PSK encryption
ip iw / iwconfig + wpa_supplicant ip / dhcpcd / dhclient
Automatically managed,
with network profiles support
netctl, Wicd, NetworkManager, etc.
The second table should compare tools for the automatic method, I wouldn't list manual there. I'm not even sure if wvdial should be listed there, you could add pppd for the same reason.
As for moving the tables, I'd merge the first table into the introduction of Wireless Setup#Wireless management (effectively just removing the section heading) and move the second table into Wireless Setup#Automatic setup.
-- Lahwaacz (talk) 11:21, 11 August 2013 (UTC)
As I look at the table now, it seems highly inaccurate - netctl, wicd and NetworkManager use wpa_supplicant and dhcpcd internally (wicd even uses net-tools and wireless_tools), you just don't have to manage them directly. Perhaps that should be mentioned. -- Lahwaacz (talk) 11:38, 11 August 2013 (UTC)
Yes, I added that, thanks. Networkmanager uses dhclient btw. And your version is much better, yes. Just changing it slightly
Management method Interface activation Wireless connection management
(/=alternatives)
Assigning IP address
(/=alternatives)
Manually managed,
with no or WEP encryption
ip iw / iwconfig ip / dhcpcd / dhclient
Manually managed,
with WPA or WPA2 PSK encryption
ip iw / iwconfig + wpa_supplicant ip / dhcpcd / dhclient
Automatically managed,
with network profiles support
netctl, Wicd, NetworkManager, etc.

These tools pull in the required dependencies from the list of packages in the manual method.

Replace it, if you are ok with it. I'm fine with your other suggestions too. The reason I added wvdial was to make clear networkmanager is not the only alternative for 3G. --Indigo (talk) 12:34, 11 August 2013 (UTC)
Looks good, I've updated it with slight change to the links. Next I'll try to update the second table. -- Lahwaacz (talk) 14:20, 11 August 2013 (UTC)
I consider this issue solved, closing. -- Lahwaacz (talk) 10:56, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
Yes, also the second table works well now after your move/edit. I learned on the way that netctl also supports ppp/3G modems; great tool they built. --Indigo (talk) 22:37, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Wireless status

My2c regarding the Check the driver status sub-section:

   Check kernel messages for firmware being loaded
    $ dmesg |grep firmware
    [   7.148259] iwlwifi 0000:02:00.0: loaded firmware version 39.30.4.1 build 35138 op_mode iwldvm

The search keyword 'firmware' was not included in the kernel message for my wireless driver. Being new to manual setup I didn't think about the command dmesg, and assumed the output meant my kernel was not loaded. However the previous command lspci -k had indicated it was loaded creating unnecessary confusion.

I suggest the keyword 'firmware' be changed to reflect the output of the earlier test, lspci -k, in order to maintain continuity.

This could take the form of the adopted convention in the note further down the page:

   Note: Examples in this section assume that your wireless device is wlan0 
   to connect to your_essid wifi  accesspoint. Replace both accordingly. 

Or use man page conventions:

   dmesg | grep [kernel driver]  // output of #lspci -k

But since I'm a novice, I can't be certain the dmesg output will _always_ include the driver named by lspci on the relevant dmesg line. See also this this poster's attempt at describing his wireless setup. Its thorough, but it also shows the same discontinuity. "iwlwifi" is the kernel driver, but the output from his posted lspci command seems to be truncated and does not include the driver name (in a sea of some unfamiliar commands, parameters, and device/software proper names).