Talk:Installation guide

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Read this first before adding new suggestions

  • systemd tools such as hostnamectl, timedatectl and localectl do not work in the installation chroot environment, so please do not propose to use them in the guide unless you can prove that they have been made to work also in that case. See [1], [2], [3] and [4] for some past discussions about this issue.
  • localectl list-keymaps does not work due to bug FS#46725. For the chosen replacement command, see [5].
  • localhost must be set explicitely in /etc/hosts, as it is otherwise resolved over the network. See FS#56684.
  • Due to the wide variety of available boot loaders, the installation guide refers to Arch_boot_process#Boot_loader instead of making a specific recommendation for the installed system. See [6], [7], [8], [9], [10] for some past discussions on this topic.

-- The ArchWiki Administrators 22:17, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

Link to the German version

Instead of de:Arch Install Scripts you could choose de:Anleitung für Einsteiger it means "Beginner's Guid" and is a very detailed artikel for very new arch users and the future experts.

Thank you, done. -- Kynikos (talk) 16:31, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
This was already proposed last year and rejected: [11]. I don't see what has changed since then. If someone adds me as admin to the german wiki or changes the protection settings, I can update de:Arch Install Scripts as required. -- Alad (talk) 18:13, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
I see, I didn't remember that discussion so I've reverted the change, hopefully you'll make it to update the translation, let's leave this open until the problem is solved, otherwise this kind of suggestion will keep appearing recurrently. -- Kynikos (talk) 17:53, 7 February 2018 (UTC)
Apparently since last year the translation has been halved in size, but its scope is still much larger than the Install guide (or even the old Beginners' guide). -- Alad (talk) 09:42, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

Why should a static IP be preferred over 127.0.1.1 in /etc/hosts?

"If the system has a permanent IP address, it should be used instead of 127.0.1.1."

I think the ArchWiki should not just say do X but also why. Alad as you added this, perhaps you can explain?--Larivact (talk) 15:14, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

In Network_configuration#Local hostname resolution: "For a system with a permanent IP address, that permanent IP address should be used instead of 127.0.1.1." -- Lahwaacz (talk) 06:48, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
First appearance in our wiki, cited source, also discussion. -- Kynikos (talk) 10:26, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
Clear enough, close. -- Blackteahamburger (talk) 01:58, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
This should be explained in the guide or at least in Network_configuration#Local hostname resolution. Explaining stuff in the edit summary or on talk pages is not enough. -- Lahwaacz (talk) 09:43, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

Wording in example layout table and size of EFI partition

Formatting the ESP

I believe myself that the partition table should be modified. When Going through the install, it was confusing how swap was the last partition, usually suppose to be the partition before Root, as if the computer loads up swap before user login. Didn't realize that a GPT disk needed to be formatted until reading this guide: https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/EFI_system_partition . Would recommend at least linking to this section of the document or even input Format partition section within the Wiki. Shaggy (talk) 20:15, 29 June 2020 (UTC)Shaggy

The order of partitions is irrelevant and it has (mostly) no effect on booting. The fact that the ESP needs to formatted after its creation cannot be simply stated, as it could be misinterpreted as requiring to always format it, even if is an existing partition that already has a file system.
After reading an anecdote, I think moving swap before root should be considered :D
-- nl6720 (talk) 09:39, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
I've been thinking, how about placing the mkfs.fat -F32 /dev/sdxY command in Installation guide#Format the partitions. EFI system partition#Format the partition could instead be modified to omit the FAT type (i.e mkfs.fat /dev/sdxY). FAT32 is a recommendation, but not mandatory, thus it's more appropriate for the Installation guide, and this would allow to document the 2 MiB FAT12 formatted ESP, used by User:Eschwartz and others, in the EFI system partition article. -- nl6720 (talk) 11:14, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
I guess that's reasonable, if you add the note that an existing EFI partition may have to be preserved. (cf. User:Alad/Beginners'_guide#Format_the_partitions) -- Alad (talk) 20:10, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

HiDPI on the console

With an ever increasing number of HiDPI displays, including at the begging of the article a section about adjusting the scaling factor or changing the font can be helpful, see HiDPI#Linux_console. Goetzc (talk) 02:21, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

It could be added as an example for setfont in Installation_guide#Set_the_keyboard_layout. The issue I have is that HiDPI#Linux_console mentions that tty2-6 may be unusable, while the Installation guide specifically instructs to change ttys as required in Installation_guide#Boot_the_live_environment. -- Alad (talk) 13:07, 7 September 2019 (UTC)
May be as an example for the line "See README.bootparams for a list of boot parameters" Installation_guide#Boot_the_live_environment, it could be specified to hit e button to edit the boot entry and add the following parameters to the boot line, like video=1920x1080 if you have HiDPI display. -- Xzorg6 (talk) 22:41, 15 December 2019 (UTC)
video= will just change the resolution. To get a bigger font on the console, you need CONFIG_FONT_TER16x32=y in the kernel config and fbcon=font:TER16x32 in the kernel command line. Since the official kernels don't enable CONFIG_FONT_TER16x32, someone will need to open a bug report asking for it. After that, the instructions for setting the fbcon=font:TER16x32 kernel parameter could be added to the wiki. -- nl6720 (talk) 06:52, 16 December 2019 (UTC)
linux 5.5.6.arch1-1 (currently in testing) has CONFIG_FONT_TER16x32=y (FS#64861). If if gets move to core before March, then the March iso will have it. It's probably a good idea to start drafting a tip to place in Installation guide#Boot the live environment. -- nl6720 (talk) 11:12, 26 February 2020 (UTC)
And just after I wrote this, the package was moved to core. -- nl6720 (talk) 11:27, 26 February 2020 (UTC)
I'm seeing multiple claims[12][13][14] that people with HiDPI screens are getting the TER16x32 font. I was not aware that the kernel chooses a font depending on screen size. Can anyone confirm that this really is the case? If it really works that way and unless FS#65680 messes this up, then there's nothing to add to the Installation guide about this topic. -- nl6720 (talk) 06:02, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
As per https://lkml.org/lkml/2019/6/18/966 the decision to use ter16x32 is not based on screen size but only resolution.So even though a 1080p screen may be hidpi it does not use ter16x32 M.Srikanth (talk) 10:17, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
At least that part is now clear, thanks. The first step should be to get HiDPI#Linux console up to date. After that, as I've said before, a tip for the installation guide can be drafted. -- nl6720 (talk) 11:04, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
I fixed the page and removed the template M.Srikanth (talk) 12:25, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

First mention of /mnt in example partition layout

/mnt is mentioned at mount point in Installation_guide#Partition_the_disks, while /mnt is made explicit two sections later in Installation_guide#Mount_the_file_systems. As I recall it, this was changed because some users blindly copy pasted commands and mounted /boot on the live system, instead of /mnt/boot. Some options:

  • Introduce another column describing the mount point on the installed system.
  • Actually explain /mnt early.
  • Revert the "mount point" to not include /mnt.

-- Alad (talk) 13:03, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

I don't understand what's the actual problem here... -- Lahwaacz (talk) 09:36, 8 September 2019 (UTC)
From what I read on #archlinux-wiki, this comes from https://www.reddit.com/r/archlinux/comments/d0v0j3/is_it_just_me_or_is_the_prospect_of_installing/ where the user was confused by the lack of root mountpoint (i.e. /mnt vs /). A question could be raised, if we should concern ourselves with users who have strong opinions about the wiki content yet can't be bothered to propose improvements in the talk pages...
About Alad's proposed options: I disagree with the first option, I think it will just complicate things even further. I support the third option and maybe adjusting the column header like in Special:Diff/581800.
I'd actually would like to go even further and change the commands run from outside chroot to be visually distinct, e.g.:
root@archiso # mount /dev/sdX1 /mnt
I think it would better solve the underlying issue.
-- nl6720 (talk) 15:26, 8 September 2019 (UTC)
I'm not overly fond of the longer column name. For the last proposed option, I may agree if this is formalized in Help:Style, so that it is not specfic to the Installation guide. -- Alad (talk) 11:20, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
Adding it Help:Style was my intention, since other articles, too, will need to use that style for some commands. I'm thinking of creating a template for it: Special:Permalink/581945. -- nl6720 (talk) 10:19, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
Sounds good to me, I'd just prefer the regular (non-bold) font for the prompt as above. -- Alad (talk) 21:54, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
Special:Permalink/582327. Are there any other opinions about creating such a template? Or should I take this discussion to Help talk:Template per Help:Template#Creation? -- nl6720 (talk) 18:31, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
  1. How are you going to call the template? This template would probably add to the Help:Template#Code formatting templates series, should it be named in a consistent fashion?
  2. Should this template support custom prompts, and if so, should it be called "pc" (from "(custom) prompted" code)?
  3. I don't like the red color too much, if bold is not an option maybe we can go green|purple|blue, something that recalls less a warning of some kind? Or can we just leave it with the default font color? Or a slightly fainter black?
  4. I haven't looked well into it, but maybe we can instead add an optional argument to Template:bc and Template:hc that prefixes a custom (colored) prompt? I wouldn't see a problem with repeating "root@archiso #" in every instance, or we may derive the new template from those two at that point.
  5. The template should probably be derived from Template:bc in any case, for simpler code, see User:Kynikos/Template:Sandbox2.
-- Kynikos (talk) 17:36, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
  1. Initially I was going to call it Template:Archiso since it would be Archiso-specific, but I'm starting to think that creating a more general-purpose template would be better. It could then be used in PostgreSQL and the [postgres]$ convention would get formalized in Help:Style. Now the issue is the [user@peer-a]# in Template:hc used in WireGuard. I'd rather not create two new templates, but I'm having trouble getting Template:Sandbox to work :(
  2. I like your "Template:pc" suggestion.
  3. Be glad I didn't post my first draft that was slightly more colorful. From your offered colors, I'd choose purple.
  4. I'd rather not mess with the established templates just for this change, so I'd prefer creating a new template.
  5. I didn't even think about using Template:bc. Is it a good idea to do that? The new template might need to be updated if Template:bc is ever changed in an incompatible way.
-- nl6720 (talk) 07:33, 17 September 2019 (UTC)
Yeah, after viewing your attempts and looking into it myself, I think modifying bc/hc is out of discussion, it would add too much code/style for so little use.
Thinking about this again one day after, I feel I'm realizing that my concerns in general may descend from the fact that we're going to create a template to represent (block) code, even though we already have 2 which basically do the same thing, including allowing to include a prompt; the only addition of this "Archiso" or "pc" template would be the formatting around the prompt, so why not keep it simple (I know, "simplicity" is often subjective and controversial) and instead either make a Template:Archiso to be used like {{bc|{{Archiso}} mount /dev/sdX1 /mnt}} or Template:ps (or Template:PS) to be used like {{hc|{{ps|root@archiso #}} mount /dev/sdX1 /mnt}}? They also work with Template:hc and space-prefixed code blocks!
Putting the choice of color aside, if the above idea of a standalone prompt template isn't welcome, I think my second choice would be to make two Template:pbc and Template:phc that work like {{pbc|$|ls}} and {{phc|$|ls|...}}, with the style rule to use them only in case of complex prompts. I'd still derive them from bc/hc to inherit any changes that we'd decide to make to them, and avoid repeating that ugly <pre> hack even more.
Otherwise I give up and accept the Template:Archiso that works like {{Archiso|mount /dev/sdX1 /mnt}}, in the hope that one day we won't need an analogous "hc" version.
-- Kynikos (talk) 14:24, 17 September 2019 (UTC)
I can't say I really like the idea of {{bc|{{Archiso}} mount /dev/sdX1 /mnt}} or {{hc|{{ps|root@archiso #}} mount /dev/sdX1 /mnt}}. I'd prefer creating Template:pbc and Template:phc.
I still don't get what's wrong with Template:Sandbox. It should just work:
prompt # command
code
-- nl6720 (talk) 04:43, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
FWIW (and a bit of fun) I've fixed Template:Sandbox, although I'm not sure if we really need that level of automation ^^ I stick to my position above, is there a third (or more) opinion? -- Kynikos (talk) 15:48, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
I think you like the #800080 shade of purple, right? ;-) Lahwaacz (talk) 11:39, 21 September 2019 (UTC)
Yes, I do like that one :D but I think it would be too bright for this template. -- nl6720 (talk) 11:52, 21 September 2019 (UTC)

Buggy graphics driver

Can there be a hint that nomodeset parameter could be used if the graphics driver is buggy (I've heard nouveau may be buggy sometimes) M.Srikanth (talk) 04:47, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

GitLab blobs in Lynx

Links to files (blobs) on gitlab.archlinux.org are not readable in Lynx (or any other console web browser); see https://gitlab.com/gitlab-org/gitlab/-/issues/26567.

Should the Installation guide link to raw files instead?

-- nl6720 (talk) 12:29, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

Maybe you could ask svenstaro to add it to https://gitlab.com/gitlab-org/gitlab/-/issues/232073... -- Lahwaacz (talk) 12:36, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
It has been filed under nice to have. -- nl6720 (talk) 17:19, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

RAM usage

Attempting to boot the ISO with 532MB RAM (VM) and it hangs at attempting to mount the ISO. Changing RAM to 544MB allows the Arch ISO to boot, so I suspect the amount of RAM needed on the page isn't accurate. Beepboo (talk) 14:11, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

Updated again. Note that after installation the system can still easily get under 512 MB. -- Lahwaacz (talk) 14:05, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
Lahwaacz, it's missing fullstop "." in the end of this sentence. -- Josephgbr (talk) 23:49, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
Actually not missing (found it just now), but should it be after the reference link? -- Josephgbr (talk) 23:51, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
It's used the same way also in Installation guide#Select the mirrors. -- Lahwaacz (talk) 07:01, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
From what I've seen, most wiki pages use it the same way. -- nl6720 (talk) 07:52, 19 August 2020 (UTC)
There is actually an open discussion about this: Help talk:Style/Formatting and punctuation#Reference links before or after punctuation marks? -- Lahwaacz (talk) 08:05, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

Boot issues faced when installing on modern machines.

One may encounter "Invalid signature" when trying to boot from the installation media on a machine with secure boot on and keys not cleared.

Also, after installing on a NVME SSD, one need to set the drive to AHCI mode instead of Intel Optimized (in bios configuring panel), otherwise you just can't boot into the system.

Sffred (talk) 00:05, 24 September 2020 (UTC) Sffred 1600905886

AHCI is a SATA controller operation mode, it shouldn't have anything to do with NVMe. You can add a section to Partitioning#Troubleshooting about changing the SATA mode if Linux doesn't see SATA disks, but make sure you're using the correct terms. -- nl6720 (talk) 06:27, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
Some motherboards support SATA over the M.2 port, which may be the source of this confusion. -- Lahwaacz (talk) 07:33, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
w:M.2#Storage interfaces lists "PCI Express using AHCI" as an option, but it's unclear if such a mode is actually implemented by any firmware, and even if it was, it should not be recommended as it would drastically reduce the drive's speed. From what I could find[15][16][17], it looks like manufacturers simply interpret "SATA mode" being set to "AHCI" on NVMe controllers to mean "use native operating mode without firmware RAID". -- nl6720 (talk) 08:33, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
I documented the issue (as far as I could) in Partitioning#Drives are not visible when firmware RAID is enabled. Now it just needs to be somehow linked from the Installation guide. -- nl6720 (talk) 08:18, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
While on the topic of SATA (and non-SATA) operating modes, any thoughts about the backup GPT header corruption warning in GPT fdisk#Convert between MBR and GPT? -- nl6720 (talk) 08:37, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
Sorry, I have no idea... -- Lahwaacz (talk) 10:57, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
I added a note about Secure Boot to Installation guide#Boot the live environment. If anyone's wondering why it says "installation images" then that's because of ipxe.efi (the EFI binary for Netboot). -- nl6720 (talk) 06:52, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

Swap partition vs swap file

Would it be reasonable to stop suggesting using swap partitions and instead recommend creating a swap file? Will genfstab work in a chroot environment to create a correct fstab? Managor (talk) 12:50, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

There's no reason why swap files should be given preference over swap volumes, using one or the other (or both) is a choice left to the user. Installation guide#Example layouts already mentions swap files, although, maybe some reference to them could also be added to Installation guide#Format the partitions and Installation guide#Mount the file systems. -- nl6720 (talk) 14:51, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

/etc/hosts: dual ip4/ip6 localhost prevents ip4 from working

I recently set up a new system with /etc/hosts copied from the guide:

127.0.0.1	localhost
::1		localhost
127.0.1.1	myhostname.localdomain	myhostname

I found localhost did not resolve to 127.0.0.1 which caused some docker comms to fail etc.

Removing or renaming the ip6 binding allowed ip4 localhost to work again, so perhaps the following should be used in the guide instead:

127.0.0.1	localhost
::1		ip6-localhost
127.0.1.1	myhostname.localdomain	myhostname

—This unsigned comment is by Alexheretic (talk) 09:18, 19 February 2021‎. Please sign your posts with ~~~~!

Post-installation

I skipped steps in the guide so I faced a weird crash in gnome without any explanations. I suggest a note.

Note: Many of them assume that you have your timezone or locales set up. Make sure you have followed all the steps.

Escope (talk) 10:11, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

The reader is supposed to follow all the steps. If we apply that to other pages, the pages need a boatload of notes to make sure the reader did not skip any steps. A common functional system has properly configured locales and timezones.
Since this is GNOME-specific however I would at most add a section into GNOME/Troubleshooting or even General troubleshooting, but I still think this is out of scope to be honest. Many applications may not work properly when the timezones or locales are not correctly configured.
-- NetSysFire (talk) 15:30, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
The reader is not supposed to follow all the steps in case one doesn't worthy of attention. In my humble opinion, that's why it has huge advantage over the "Next-Next-Finish" approach. Unconfigured locales or timezones are obvious to many people, but my inexperience made me spend some time to sorting out. The other pages are highly deep and clear about the steps and why they are needed, my eyes enjoy such notes, pages are boatloaded already and I like it a lot =D. Thank you for your attention to this little change.
-- Escope (talk) 00:23, 3 April 2021 (UTC)
If you're inexperienced, what makes you think you can judge if a step is necessary or not? You thought you knew better than the people that wrote the guide and found out that you didn't. Not something that needs changed here IMO.
Scimmia (talk) 01:57, 3 April 2021 (UTC)
The ArchWiki should also be about the why-aspect. I am in favor of adding e.g a note about why they are needed and why some applications may crash or behave strangely without properly configured timezones/locales. If you know e.g a nice blog post about this topic, why not add something like this?
Note: Some applications may behave in strange ways or even crash when the timezones and/or locales are not properly configured. See this informative blog post to know why that is.
The note needs obviously some rewording, but something like this would fit in well in my opinion.
-- NetSysFire (talk) 02:02, 3 April 2021 (UTC)
Adding a brief "why" would be ok, but using Template:Note would be too much. I've also always wanted to emphasize the "and" in Installation guide#Localization, since it's easy to miss (even some of the translated installation guides do not mention en_US.UTF-8 UTF-8). --- nl6720 (talk) 08:48, 3 April 2021 (UTC)
People who want to know the "why" can already consult the relevant articles. That said, consistency is lacking: some sections explain in detail why a step should be performed (such as Installation_guide#Verify_signature), whereas Installation_guide#Configure_the_system is mostly a checklist of steps with brief instructions how. The solution isn't obvious: adding notes all over would likely more distract than clarify. -- Alad (talk) 19:41, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
I'm definitely apposed to adding notes, but I don't see why we couldn't add brief "why"s without them. -- nl6720 (talk) 06:55, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Add link to ALSA firmware in the Install essentials packages section

With sof-firmware gaining more and more traction on newer systems it might be useful to add a link or piece of information that this might be necessary for newer laptops/cards, see Advanced_Linux_Sound_Architecture#ALSA_firmware. We currently get pretty much daily reports on the BBS where someone wonders where their sound card has gone. I know this is "technically" included in the "install additional firmware not included in linux-firmware" line, but since this is something that hasn't really been necessary for years this is potentially something not everyone is immediately aware of. V1del (talk) 17:15, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

Even with a link to Advanced_Linux_Sound_Architecture#ALSA_firmware, it might be confusing that it applies based on the hardware, even when the user wants to use PulseAudio or Pipewire. Is there a better place where audio firmware could be described? — Lahwaacz (talk) 20:00, 13 August 2021 (UTC)
I tried to have some sort of "standardized" snippet on laptop pages when it needs ALSA firmware, but the ArchWiki is not a hardware db and we cannot document all pieces of hardware. Audio is not essential for some users but a few depend on screenreaders, which is crucial to accessibility.
In the end it might not cause harm to install sof-firmware when in doubt.
-- NetSysFire (talk) 01:17, 14 August 2021 (UTC)
I mean if we cover firmware in e.g. Sound system and link to that instead of ALSA, it would seem much more general. — Lahwaacz (talk) 06:19, 14 August 2021 (UTC)
Well for this particular case you can fairly easily identify whether you have a need for sof-firmware with an lsmod | grep snd_sof or a dmesg | grep -i sof, but yes might be helpful to move that somewhere else if we want to ensure to have hardware based separation here. V1del (talk) 12:04, 14 August 2021 (UTC)
I added sof-firmware as an example (and the aforementioned link) so that there's at least something for now. -- nl6720 (talk) 10:20, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

Add a link to Solid_state_drive or storage device specific pages before/during partitioning step

Some pages like Solid_state_drive are nearly impossible to get to from just following the Installation Guide. This is problematic as some recommendations from these pages are only relevant before installation, as it is too late afterwards (notably for setting native sector size as in Solid_state_drive#Native_sector_size. I believe there should be a note in the partitioning step, something like modifying this line:

to

As an alternative, this could be added to Partitioning, but it's already quite big... -- Cvlc (talk) 15:47, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

Optional but recommended step prior to running pacstrap: enable parallel downloads

To optimize pacman downloads during the pacstrap process, it is recommended to enable /etc/pacman.conf and uncomment the line reading "ParallelDownloads=5". It is also recommended to repeat this process upon entering the chroot environment after installing the base system. See pacman#Enabling parallel downloads for more information. YuGiOhFan2020 (talk) 02:56, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

Recommended by whom?
Even if we assume that straying from defaults is warranted, the fact that you should to enable it twice (both in the live environment and the newly installed system), makes the instructions a little too complicated.
IMHO it would be better to open a feature request against the pacman package (the package not the project) and ask for parallel downloads to be enabled in pacman.conf.
-- nl6720 (talk) 05:25, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
Parallel downloads are an option, not a recommendation. Even pacman#Enabling parallel downloads does not mention optimization at all, because the effect on download speed is disputable. — Lahwaacz (talk) 05:29, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
Agreed with the above. At best it could be mentioned in General recommendations, but there's little reason to explicitly mention it in the Installation guide. Closing -- Alad (talk) 06:54, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

Remove /etc/hosts example

Network configuration#Local hostname resolution mentions that nss-myhostname is enabled by default, so everything should work without /etc/hosts. Then it motivates the editing of /etc/hosts by avoiding potential breakage in some software.

On the other hand, Installation guide#Network configuration just instructs to add "matching entries" to /etc/hosts, as if it was mandatory.

I'd just remove the /etc/hosts example from the installation guide.

Lahwaacz (talk) 05:59, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

There's nothing mandatory about it, but whenever it's not in the guide someone will complain software XY (with no support for nss-myhostname) breaks. The real issue is that filesystem ignored this and dropped the file contents. -- Alad (talk) 06:56, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
Still, I don't think the installation guide should contain such workarounds, let alone without any motivation. If we remove it, more people will investigate it when they have problems and this might lead to some better solution. If we keep it, nothing will change. — Lahwaacz (talk) 07:26, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
I agree in principle, but this could lead to undesirable consequences. Some software directly read /etc/hosts and /etc/resolv.conf, that's a fact and it will not change. Those that end up "breaking, hanging or otherwise delaying operation" (as I wrote in Network configuration#Local hostname resolution) obviously need to be fixed, but IMHO the bigger issue is that these programs can end up querying for localhost or the hostname over the Internet. It should be mostly fine if /etc/resolv.conf only lists a locally running resolver that can adequately answer that query, but while that's possible for localhost (and web browsers even hardcode it), it's unlikely to happen for the hostname. -- nl6720 (talk) 10:46, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
Do we have some idea which software is actually broken in this regard? So far it's very hypothetical which I don't like. Also if there are privacy or security concerns, they should be addressed in Domain name resolution#Privacy and security.
For Installation guide#Network configuration I see three options: 1) remove the mention of /etc/hosts entirely, 2) copy the motivation from Network configuration#Local hostname resolution, 3) remove the example but point out the issue in a note and link to Network configuration#Local hostname resolution.
Lahwaacz (talk) 12:06, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
No I don't know any software that actually breaks in any of the mentioned ways. Yesterday (I think), someone in #archlinux needed to create /etc/hosts to allow a "reactive java postgres driver" to reach localhost, but none of the breaking type of issues were mentioned. They did mention that they "wish the problem was easier to find or search for". I agree with that and it's probably something to improve in Network configuration#Local hostname resolution.
The existence of FS#56684 shows that that people care about localhost queries going over the network. Perhaps a re-open request is in order asking to add back localhost entries to /etc/hosts.
From the provided choices, I'd go with 1. IMHO it would be a little odd to mention the issue in the installation guide, it's not like you can know whether you'll be affected by it or not, when installing Arch.
-- nl6720 (talk) 12:40, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
2) and 3) are not required if FS#56684 is solved. I've filed a request to reopen that bug. -- Alad (talk) 13:46, 14 October 2021 (UTC)