Talk:Laptop

From ArchWiki

RUN+="<command>" won't work reliably

In the example:

/etc/udev/rules.d/lowbat.rules
# Suspend the system when battery level drops to 2%
SUBSYSTEM=="power_supply", ATTR{status}=="Discharging", ATTR{capacity}=="2", RUN+="/usr/bin/systemctl suspend"
RUN
...
Starting daemons or other long running processes is not appropriate for
udev; the forked processes, detached or not, will be unconditionally killed
after the event handling has finished.

There's no garantee that systemctl will finish execution. Its possible to use ENV{SYSTEMD_WANTS}="systemd-suspend.service" but I have not personally tested this. All these udev rules should be reworked to trigger one-shot systemd services ideally, which also brings along all the benefits of have systemd units (logging, debugging, etc).

-- Simongmzlj

First of all, RUN+= is not deprecated. Missing features do not predicate deprecation. I've removed the accuracy note from the page: [1].
The ENV{SYSTEMD_WANTS}="suspend.target" should be used ideally, but it has to be combined with TAG+="systemd".
-- Lahwaacz (talk) 19:38, 26 September 2013 (UTC)
Isn't the point that systemctl may not finish executing - certainly may not finish quickly enough for udev's liking? It is a matter of what is suitable in a udev rule due to the nature of udev. --cfr (talk) 01:47, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

systemd-tmpfiles

Re [2], how is this any different from other tmpfiles entries? -- Alad (talk) 10:51, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

For example in Maximizing_performance#systemd-tmpfiles you're writing the desired value to the "special" file, but here you're just toggling the state for the event you write to the file. It would work assuming that systemd-tmpfiles is run just once after boot, but that's not the case. -- Lahwaacz (talk) 11:05, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

Old laptop pages

There are a whole bunch of incredibly old (ca 2010 or even older) laptop pages. They are usually horribly outdated, full of dead/broken links and not pleasant to look at. In my opinion laptop pages which did not have a major, relevant edit in the last 5 years or so should be archived. This definition is not accurate, but if there are ancient laptop pages which still get maintenance they should not be archived. Here is a list of ancient pages I found so far, I still need to tag them with Template:Out of date and link to this discussion:

Some devices are also still semi popular, especially ThinkPads.

There are a whole lot more but this single discussion will probably grow too large if I keep on adding links.

-- NetSysFire (talk) 19:48, 2 March 2021 (UTC)

There is no expiration date for laptops—except, in context of Arch Linux, when the architecture is too old and there is no more support for it, but then, Template:Archive would be preferred IMHO.
What do you think by marking them "Out of date"? There may be nothing to update in these pages, if laptop material hasn't changed, isn't it? Do they need links updates? Do they need restyling (Template:Laptop style)? -- Audeoudh (talk) 08:13, 31 March 2021 (UTC)
Most need both restyling and updating. The problem is that they are usually extremely ugly, full of outdated information that is not useful at all anymore and they also contain pointless config/shell dumps. The problem is that we can not update them easily without the hardware, this does not apply to fixing style problems and more of course. In my honest opinion this is a waste of time though, since no one uses these ancient devices anymore. These pages are now cluttering the statistics with broken/dead links and other issues.
When a page gets archived, it is not deleted and can still be viewed (when you are logged in at least). And User:DerpishCat and I only marked pages with Template:Out of date when the last relevant edit (which did not fix style issues or whatever) was at least 9 years ago.
-- NetSysFire (talk) 16:23, 31 March 2021 (UTC)
I propose that dealing with laptop pages which are just hopeless can be done by redirecting them to Laptop instead of ArchWiki:Archive. Thoughts?
-- NetSysFire (talk) 10:08, 13 June 2021 (UTC)
I'm not sure of the technical implications below that decision. However,
1. I disagree deleting information at all. Even for obsolete hardware (i.e., unsupported by Arch Linux). Mark them archived, put a big header “this hardware is no more supported by Arch Linux”, or any other solution like that is OK for me as long as we may still reach that pages if we really want them.
2. I won't consider (nor mark) “Out-of-date” a (laptop-)page for which hardware is still supported, whatever is its current state (not modified for many years, ugly, broken links, etc.)—though Template:Laptop style or similar seems OK for me. “Out-of-date” means that information is no more relevant, which is clearly not the case if hardware is still supported (e.g., one of my own laptop, a Dell Inspiron N5010, marked “Out-of-date” but laptop is still running perfectly and information there may be of some use).
-- Audeoudh (talk) 10:03, 14 June 2021 (UTC)
I think redirecting to the Laptop page is more confusing than anything: the general page does not offer specific advice for the model. When dropped to the archive page, it is made clear to the user that no information relevant today is available in the wiki. --Erus Iluvatar (talk) 18:35, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
Please exempt Lenovo ThinkPad T400 and Lenovo ThinkPad T520 from this list. They have since been edited to comply with Help:Laptop page guidelines. -- Flyingpig (talk) 01:19, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
I've been archiving laptop pages marked with Template:Out of date, following NetSysFire. So far only one instance has sparked a discussion (which ended with the related page being nicely rewritten).
From what I've gathered from the discussion an the pages I've encountered so far:
  • They mostly contain ancient advice, usually irrelevant to a recent Arch Linux installation (e.g. some still reference rc.conf like Sony Vaio VPCF13, Nokia 6230i, Toshiba Satellite P500-ST2G02, Lenovo ThinkPad T420s or ASUS AT3IONT-I).
  • They have been written (long) before we codified the Help:Laptop page guidelines and thus offer no coherent presentation of − or outright miss − information which could be helpful to a potential reader.
  • The majority of them concerns hardware which is probably no longer actively used, because even though hardware does not expire, most people replace their laptop instead of upgrading them, and very few people keep the same machine for more than 5 years, even less 10.
See below for a draft to be added at the bottom of Help:Laptop page guidelines.
--Erus Iluvatar (talk) 18:38, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
I strongly disagree with that. My Dell_Latitude_E7440 works great even till now, with the only apparent disadvantage is the 1080p screen compared to modern HiDpi screens. It is 9 years old now. Replacing a laptop even when it is perfectly capable of doing one's work only applies to some rich countries/people. Pages of an "old" laptop should not be archived. Putting a banner stating the last update's date to warn the reader is OK. --Oldherl (talk) 06:16, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
And I'm still using a Toshiba Satellite L300 from 2008, but this is not what this discussion is about.
The combination of factor outlined above explains why some pages are in a state that gives no helpful content to a potential reader.
Keep in mind that the proposed draft requires the page to be old and not in line with the rules applicable to hardware pages: a page that is simply old would not be affected, nor one that still receives frequent contributions (e.g. the one you linked).
Compare it to Toshiba Satellite P500-ST2G02 for example: the last content addition was in 2012.
What are your thoughts about simply flagging pages for archival (hence giving a simple 1 week countdown to protest) instead of giving contributors a year to get the page in shape? --Erus Iluvatar (talk) 07:06, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
Since this looks like it's not getting traction, how about we just follow the rules applicable to other pages, i.e. flagging them for archival and if no one yells in a week, making good on that promise? --Erus Iluvatar (talk) 18:36, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

Old hardware pages draft

While hardware has no expiration date, software evolves rapidly around it. With less and less users able to confirm if old advice is still relevant as time passes, hardware pages which are:

  • flagged with Template:Laptop style and Template:Out of date, the second of which should link to this rule and state "This page is ancient. On {{#time: Y-m-d|now + 1 year}}, this page will be archived, since the validity of its content for an up to date Arch Linux installation can not be verified.";
  • have not seen any content update in the last 5 years (i.e. we do not count style or typo fixes as being an update);
  • have not been updated for 1 year after flagging (again, not counting minor typo or style fixes);

will be archived.

Audio mute LED

Regarding 'reloading the module without rebooting', the right way to do this is systemctl isolate emergency.target, but this currently fails because sulogin does not allow root login when the root account is disabled. If this problem gets resolved, feel free to update the page and delete this note. —This unsigned comment is by PBS (talk) 11:28, 14 November 2021 (UTC). Please sign your posts with ~~~~!